It would appear that the Ontario Provincial Police are sending out mixed signals with regards to alcohol and ice-fishing.
As Kelly Roche of the Ottawa SUN reported:
“Last Thursday, Eastern Region OPP issued a statement saying it’s illegal to drink alcohol inside or outside a hut.
This was just two weeks after Sault Ste. Marie OPP said in a press release it’s OK to drink inside the huts — just not outside.
The Sun called OPP’s corporate communications department to find out who’s right.
While the force stopped short of saying they goofed, they did concede mixed messages were out there.
“We were aware that there was some contradictory information,” said Insp. Dave Ross.
Turns out both statements were clear as dishwater.
“Under the Liquor License Act, if you’re consuming liquor in an ice hut you could be charged,” Ross said, adding you’re exempt if you’re in a hut with legitimate cooking and sleeping facilities.
“The officer has to make a judgment call,” said Ross.
He said the majority of huts don’t have stoves or beds and people can rent ice bungalows with bunkbeds.
That has some ice fishers puzzled.”
Ok folks, anyone who has ever spent time on the ice with a rod in hand knows, full well, that a beverage or two may be consumed along the way. Unlike open water fishing, having a drink or two while out on the ice just seems to come with the territory.
As one angler pointed out, “It’s no different than going to the bar” I suppose, as long as that person doesn’t get behind the wheel afterwards.
But this latest ruling may have many folks second-guessing that decision to throw-in a 6-pack of beer along with the minnow pail and ice auger.
Outdoorsguy
I’m going to pay for this … But for the life of me why does drinking have to be involved to have a good day fishing can we not leave it at home and have a drink at home after we come home
Chessy, I wish I had a concrete answer for you…but really there is no explanation why drinking and ice-fishing seem to go together..
Of all the years I have open-water fished, I can count on one hand the number of times I ever had beer with me…we just don’t drink in the boat or canoe….ice-fishing, on the other hand, is totally different.
I am not saying its right, just that drinking is a lot more prevalent on the ice..
Outdoorsguy
Again, we are faced with a law put in place that is overkill. Seems to me that the Government is convinced that Ice fishing and drinking are dangerous. It is not. Look, it’s one thing to drink and drive. If your on the road and impaired, you are not only a danger to yourself but to others. It’s a law that makes sense. But who exactly are you a danger to if your drinking while ice fishing? Just yourself. If you decide to get in a vehicle after drinking, you are then a danger. It doesn’t matter if your at a bar, friends house, hockey game, golf course, etc. Why is it different if your ice fishing? Most people who drink have one or two, and are responsible enough to plan ahead. There are always the few who ignore the rules and drink themselves stupid regardless of the situation. But if you don’t allow drinking while ice fishing, then be consistant, don’t allow drinking on a golf course, don’t allow it at hockey games. It is high time that we challange the government on overkill on public moral issues. Seems to me common sense has been removed, and laws are just made on a whim or isolated incidents.
Once again our friend Tom emerges as the ‘voice of reason’…very well put, and it will be quite interesting to see the reaction of anglers from across the province!
Outdoorsguy
Hey that Jeff and i was sure that the law was the same as in a boat >> no keys in the ign.a place to sleep ,a cooking area and a wash room . At one time it use to be fun to go down there and spend the weekend with the wife and friends fishing but times are diff. because nobody knows what law to make or uphold .
Ha oh ya i wonder if you can still smoke out on the ice .!!!!!
That depends on what you’re smoking, Paul!
Outdoorsguy
no if the zealots had their way, you wouldn’t be smoking cigarettes or cigars on the ice either.
This is just the police trying to flex their muscles, trying to show everyone how tough they are, using government money to badger and harass people just trying to enjoy themselves.
Chessy I respect the fact that you don’t want to ice fish and drink, respect the fact that when I’m out there,I do like to have A cold beer to warm up. I’m not getting pissed, I’m having a frickin beer and enjoying myself. I’m mean really, ice fishing is so boring you need to do something other than look down the hole and at each other.
On the other hand, in Quebec, where they have much more civilized laws about alcohol. I got stopped on Lac Dumoine and the Ranger Bob flipped open my cooler looking for minnows, and threw his nose up in the air and gruffed, huh only beer! and away he went. What a distinct society, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!
Iggy, I can tell you from experience that Quebec CO’s could care less about beer drinking..I mean, so long as you’re responible..as mentioned, we dont drink while out on the water but thats just us.
Ranger Rick stops by our tent every year to chat..etc..they are only concerned about abuse to our natural resources..if you are respecting the regs, catch limits, etc…they could give a rat’s arse if you’ve had a beer or two.
Outdoorsguy
well when I go out fishing on the Dumoine, only in the evening, I usually bring along 4 beers, 2 each, and I don’t drink beer during the day so I’m as sober as a judge, even if they gave me a breathalyzer I’d pass. The only thing with ice fishing, is some guys stay out all day and drink all day, then get on their ATV or snow machine and drive home, now that’s dangerous, but just having alcohol out on the ice and giving people fines for that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I have no problem with them making their presence known, for the impaired driving, but leave the responsible people alone. Oh yes, I do smoke cigars out on the ice
tom if your at a bar you can call a taxi . if your out on the ice you cant and most guys have snomobiles or quads or trucks on the ice. they have to drive them to shore. and iggy you are correct most people are responsible but when you go out to some of these places and see a case for 2 guys thats crazy . slipping and falling on the ice is bad but drunk… i guess i just got a bad taste in my mouth this summer when every kids ball game i went to both boys and girls ball the parents all had to have drinks in there hands. it drove me insane .
Guess to many people that drink irresponsibly get themselves (or others) into trouble of water. But there are the stupid people that don’t drink but also can’t drive or judge the speed they are going towards open water, other fishermen’s ice shack, ice fishermen beside his hole, young small kids playing outside the shack and having fun on the ice sheet.
Always the irresponsible in any situation that force authorities to impose on other responsible people new laws. Only problem, the irresponsible people don’t give a s_hit about existing and/or new regulations towards their bad habits.
Cheesy, I understand your point, and it’s a good one.
My point was based on the fact that you are not a danger to anyone having pops on the pond, just like your not a danger having some on the golf course. The moment you get into a vehicle you ARE a danger to others, and that’s where the law has to step in.
Now there are always those who flaunt the law and drink and drive, and that will never change, regardless if they’re on the pond, in a bar, at the arena, etc. They have an opportunity to plan ahead, and those who are responsible do, and those who aren’t don’t.
The police can’t predict who is going to drink and drive. If they could they could walk in a bar, or out on the golf course and issue tickets right away. We all know that’s not how the law works. But in the case of police issuing tickets to those ice fishing, they have made a special case, They have created a different set of rules targeting a specific segment of the population. What they are saying is that this specific segment of people are being charged in a different manner than other individuals/groups would be.
Just because it is more difficult to access public transportation in these areas, does not mean that there should be a different set of rules for those individuals. There may be a higher incident rate of drinking and driving with ice fishermen (I don’t know because I’m sure there aren’t any studies proving or disproving that statement) But like anything else public awareness can be part of the solution as well as police observing and educating fishermen to the risks of drinking and driving. Having a different standard only opens the door to other laws being developed, which may be unfair to other specialized groups in the future.
If you actually look at the law it has nothing to do with fishing … its all to do with whether or not they consider the hut a dwelling …
with sleeping/eating == dwelling
without == not a dwelling
if you drink in public … they figure its bad mojo … on ice, at a park whatever
Well i have been ice fishing for many years and for the last many years when I go it’s the auger, minnows and rods. NO BEER or alcoholic beverage. on the other hand I did hear some fisherman at Petrie this weekend saying the two go hand and hand. I just laughed it up and thought to each their own but I prefer concentrating on setting the hook when the walleye come a bitting.
Btw the fishing this year at Petrie has slowed right down. lots of fisherman but not many reports of fish being caught. (from the bay where I ussually have luck).
Caught 3 walleyes since the first ice. ;o(…
time to headout to my secret spot on the Ottawa. Infront of my bro’s cottage!
Oh and I should of added that I agree with the first comment from Chessy. Why not wait until one gets home to have a drink. same goes with golf … no drinking on the course.
but once again to each their own.
I’m gonna tread lightly here.
First off let me assure ya’ll that I have and I do drink beer, wine, or whiskey when I’m ice fishing.
This issue is not a new issue, It’s been in the books in its current version since 1990 I believe. And a varied version prior to that dating back to at least 1980 or possibly 1970 (don’t quote me on the dates) (this is exactly the reason I tread lightly……as I don’t want to get caught up in a ‘mixed message’ scenario like the OPP did)
Residence is defined in the liquor licence act as:
31. (1) In this section,
“residence” means a place that is actually occupied and used as a dwelling, whether or not in common with other persons, including all premises used in conjunction with the place to which the general public is not invited or permitted access, and, if the place occupied and used as a dwelling is a tent, includes the land immediately adjacent to and used in conjunction with the tent. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 31 (1).
PROHIBITION:
Unlawful possession or consumption
(2) No person shall have or consume liquor in any place other than,
(a) a residence;
(b) premises in respect of which a licence or permit is issued; or
(c) a private place as defined in the regulations. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 31 (2).
The first issue to address is this: Is the hut a residence, a private place, or a licensed premise. For arguement sake let’s leave out the licensed premise issue.
If in fact you satisfy either definition then regardless of how it is interpreted by the officer at the scene you stand a good chance of beating the allegation in court.
These scenarios are an unfortunate case of everyone being lumped into the same category due to the actions of a few idiots and we’ve all seen them from time to time. Some of us can even admit that we have fit that role from time to time.
I would suggest that if you are not stumbling down drunk and carrying on like and idiot and have taken some efforts to conceal the beverage that there are some officers that would look the other way. (notice I didn’t say all or many officers)
As for the idiot that chooses to drink and drive, I think the acceptable blood/alcohol concentration should be zero.
Ok, let me have it…….I could have said nothing.
Private Place Defined:
Private Place
3. (1) For the purposes of clauses 30 (13) (a) and 31 (2) (c) of the Act,
“private place” means a place, vehicle or boat described in this section. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (1).
(2) An indoor place to which the public is not ordinarily invited or permitted is considered to be a private place except at the times when the public is invited or permitted access to it. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (2).
(3) Despite subsection (2), an indoor place that is available for rental by members of the public for occasional use is not a private place. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (3).
(4) A motor vehicle equipped with sleeping accommodation and cooking facilities is considered to be a private place while it is parked and being used as a residence. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (4).
(5) Despite subsection (4), a motor vehicle is not considered to be a private place while it is on a highway or a King’s Highway within the meaning of the Highway Traffic Act. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (5).
(6) A boat that is used exclusively to carry freight and is under the command of a person certified under the Canada Shipping Act is considered to be a private place. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (6).
(7) A boat with permanent sleeping accommodations and permanent cooking and sanitary facilities, other than a boat used to carry passengers for hire is considered to be a private place while the boat is at anchor or is secured to the dock or land. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (7).
(8) If a boat is considered under subsection (7) to be a private place and is secured to a dock or land to which the public is not ordinarily invited or permitted then the dock or land is considered to be a private place except at the times when the public is invited or permitted access to it. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (8).
(9) A boat that is used exclusively to carry passengers for hire and has sleeping accommodation for all passengers is considered to be a private place if it is under the command of a person certified under the Canada Shipping Act. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (9).
(10) A boat that is owned or operated by the Canadian Coast Guard is considered to be a private place. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (10).
I don’t condone impaired driving, it’s not acceptable. But, if I want to go somewhere, anywhere, have a beer or two, and not get impaired, I really don’t see a problem with that. The next step the government will take will be to outlaw alcohol totally. And lets face it, they tried that during prohibition and it didn’t work then either.
These are the important sections pertaining to ice huts….
(2) An indoor place to which the public is not ordinarily invited or permitted is considered to be a private place except at the times when the public is invited or permitted access to it. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (2).
(3) Despite subsection (2), an indoor place that is available for rental by members of the public for occasional use is not a private place. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 718, s. 3 (3).
So….If you own the ice hut and it’s not open to the public or rented out then it’s a ‘place’ by definition. And you can legally have/consume liquor in it
If by design your ice hut is a residence (even temporarily) then the last sentence in 31(2) may I REPEAT “MAY” Apply which reads:
…..and, if the place occupied and used as a dwelling is a tent, includes the land immediately adjacent to and used in conjunction with the tent.
All of this of course is subject to interpretation……
TRAPPER your last line summed it up …. ” All of this of course is subject to interpretation ” nothing like leaving something up to a hot headed power tripping cop to decide if he is going charge you … 😉
Sadly though we only hear about the bad ones……….
Its the old expression that a few bad apples may spoil the bunch….
Outdoorsguy
you guys are up early ….. that comment was said tounge in cheek …
Yeah, we have problems with alcohol…haven’t gone to bed yet…lol
Outdoorsguy
That was also tongue in cheek btw!
Outdoorsguy
My feeling about the issue is very simple,If you are out on the ice you are in a public place and the laws regarding drinking in a public place should be upheld.If on the other hand you are in your dwelling whether it be a tent,shack,or igloo,you are in a private place and a pint is acceptable. Should you get pissed and walk around outside there is a law for that also,the same as if you relieve yourself out in public. To me the law is pretty simple. What i would be more concerned about is the beer bottles and garbage left after such an outing. Last year after making a complaint to an officer about the littering and garbage and beer bottles being left on public property by a group of partyers that could have netted a $1000 fine the officer said QUOTE ( well it’s better that they drink in the bush than on the road ) But whatever you do don’t pop a gum wrapper out the window of your car cause thats good for $500.
thanks Trapper, good info, very well explained.
and your right, there are good and bad in both the public,
and in the police force, way more good than bad but the
bad gets all the publicity
Just so everyone knows…..Iggy doesn’t always agree with me right Igster…..ROFLMAO (those were good times)
You guys wanna get a room!
Outdoorsguy
there was a time long ago that Trapper and I used to fight a lot. One day I just grabbed him by the throat and put him straight, we’ve been good ever since. LOL
Just kidding, but on most things we see eye to eye, and when we don’t, we do it in a civilized way 🙂
Ahh, I remember it well Iggs…a sad time it was indeed!
At least for all the tension we’ve had here, none of the ‘good guys’ have really gotten into anything serious…I think its the change of format, and of course with me in charge everyone behaves themselves..for fear of reprisal…lol
Whatever the case may be, I’m glad those days are gone and I’m sure you, more than anyone else are too Iggy!
Outdoorsguy
I truly am sorry if I caused your blood pressure to raise Igster, that was not my intention. I’m glad that all internet forums are a thing of the past for me.
But Blogs are still fair game, right Trapper?
Outdoorsguy
oh it wasn’t you, I liked you and Mag, and enjoyed many a conversation, both on the site and on PM’s, it was the whining and the snivelling by some others.
It had it’s run, it was great for a long time, fun in fact. I remember when I was just building it and IceQueen and
Bob the Butcher helped me with so much of it. I learned a lot about people and a lot about computer software, so it was all good, but it ran it’s life and there are still some really good sites that operate with huge memberships, I just didn’t have the time or the inclination to continue. And I like blogs 🙂
Blood pressure isn’t bad either 😉
Anyone heard from Rick lately???
I wonder if maybe something heavy fell on him in the basement, and now he can’t get up?
Perhaps someone should go check on him??
Outdoorsguy
I agree with what Paul said.Plus If someone is gonna drink and drive living from the ice shack then they are more than likely going to the same leaving a party or bar etc..
Just a minute I’ll check.
He’s fine!
Scored some nice deer over the last few days. All net B&C 183-3/8, 169-6/8 and 163-2/8.
There he goes, keeping all the big news to himself again…man, that older generation really is close-mouthed about things..
That 183″ isnt the big crossbow buck, is it Rick?
Outdoorsguy
P.S. Musk ox..hehe..good one
perhaps a musk ox fell off the wall
No Jeff it is the new number one muzzle loader buck we panel scored on Sat. Shot by Jack Delorme. A nice clean typical that grossed 188-7/8.
No musk ox Iggy but I keep banging into the caribou I am working on. I have the bruises to prove it.
I also have a big moose (190+) that I need to get out of the way.
I need a bigger shop.
To me, I think folks would like to have a beer ice fishing b/c it’s more laid back than in a boat. Usually at the shack, you’re there for a long time so you can plan for the drive back responsibly. When in the boat, you are moving (for the most part) and you’re in a vehicle that can be moved in an instant so I can understand not consuming then. You could argue that having a sled at your nearby means you could hop on it, but you’re not fishing from it so you’re not likely to do that I guess.
But at the shack, you drive there, get set up and then………you wait. Why not have a drink or 2 with your buddies? One of my fondest memories is sitting outside my Grandpa’s shack in lawnchairs having a drink. It wasn’t a drinking binge – just having a drink, soaking up the sun and hoping for the fish to bite.
I can understand the need to cut down on alcohol crashes with sleds, but I don’t even know if this is the issue. It seems to be a deciding factor of what constitutes a residence. I think you’ll start seeing more shacks have beds and makeshift toilets to fit this definition.