The coyote problem here in Ottawa has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime that’s the only way to describe it.
Over the past five years we have seen coyote contests, coyote culls, coyote attacks on family pets, increased predation on white-tailed deer, and even one coyote attack on an Ottawa resident.
I know around my place the coyote numbers are insane. Five years ago there were very few predators around and my trail cams were lucky to capture 1 coyote image for every 1000 deer images.
Now I’m picking up more yote pics than deer pics!
My neighbour’s lost their cat this past spring right on their own property, and last week a woman who lives nearby told us her neighbour has an English Sheep Hound who tangled with a coyote in her backyard, and sustained very serious injury. The dog came very close to being put down!
Along with the handful of deer I see and photograph regularly around my place is a doe and fawn who call my backwoods and fields their home. Now, for the past week or so, only the fawn has shown up on its own – looking a bit disoriented and lost.
As we all know, 6 month old fawns do not travel alone or stay on their own for any length of time. Mom is never far away. Although I haven’t yet discovered what happened to that doe, I can wager a pretty good guess as to why there’s an orphaned fawn running around.
Yes the coyotes are running rampant in Ottawa and we are up against a rock and a hard place! Sure, the hunting season on yotes is open year round and trapping is an option too. But are these really viable control options here in the Capital City?
For God’s sake, I’m scared to let my little dog out for a pee for fear that a friggin coyote will grab her!!
I can’t really trap the coyotes around my place(even though I have a license) because there are too many family pets travelling the same fields, and I can’t hunt the coyotes freely because public opinion seems to think it’s cruel.
“What would the neighbour’s say if they saw you shooting coyotes in the back field” says Mrs Outdoorsguy. Personally, a lot of them would thank me but not all of them, and I know that.
And not all of your neighbour’s would either.
Many folks here (the protectionist – preservationist lot) in Ottawa think we should just leave these nice little critters along…so the coyote population continues to flourish at the expensive of our deer population.
It’s bad now and only getting worse!
Below is an example of some of the varmints creating havoc around my place. These images were taken over the 2 weeks alone. I especially like the one of the big coyote taking a dump on my lawn..talk about the ultimate in disrespect!
Yes, something needs to be done about our burgeoning coyote population but I’m at loss as to what that should be..
The graphic image series below speaks itself..for those who have not seen it yet:
ah jeez jeff ,now your gonna get the tree huggers all up in arms again! cant think of any other way than to hunt them more. dont give a rats @$$ about the neighbors there not that close anyhow. but i know what you mean its almost like your doing something wrong when out there.
Mcdan, those tree huggers are always there…hehe..just waiting for a chance to jump in!
I would love to hear what they propose? Are they not concerned about the safety of their pets?
Outdoorsguy
I think some of the problem jeff is when farmers dont want you to shoot deer on there land and then will tell you “go ahead and shoot yotes but not deer, the hunter says screw you hope he eat your pet. where i hunt the farmer wants as many yotes as he can get they keep the mice and other animals low, the more deer they chase the better they like it. Yes yotes tackle little fawns but they really just move the deer around and keep them off pattern.
At least, I can say, the farmers in my area are doing their part.
There’s a lad down the road who works at a nearby farm part-time. He said they shot 6-7 coyotes last winter and I know of another farmer who shot 12. Its a lot easier to do that on farm land on the big open fields, but these yotes seem to like hanging around in small bush area in the suburbs..close to the houses.
I guess they’ve caught-on that they’re safer here than out in the big fields!
Outdoorsguy
P.S. I always know when the yotes are around because the foxes head for the hills…and when I see the foxes, the yotes must be hunting further away that day.
Hunt them.
Just wondering, what are the bylaws in your area regarding the use firearms, if applicable at all? In my opinion, if you are worried about damage to your property, pets, or people, you should protect it. If the neighbours don’t like, explain to them that you are protecting them as well. If you scare them with coyotes stories, they’ll be asking you to hunt them! Domesticated dogs can be unpredictable, wild coyotes can be even worse! Maybe if compare the coyote to a wild pit bull, the granolas will support your efforts!! Then, offer them some beautiful fur mittens at a reasonable price.
GPG, I’m not sure what(if any) bylaws there are within the CITY…when it comes to small-game like coyotes.
Does anyone know if there’s any firearm’s restrictions in Ottawa with regards to hunting small game and coyotes??
Hehe..I love the fur mittens idea..that’s awesome!
Outdoorsguy
I agree! Same with a buddy’s trailcam – rarely any yotes pics in the past and now, very consistent. I lost a crossbowed doe to them last year.
The answer is simple: there’s no tag limit so we just need to hunt them. Organized hunts is the way to go I hear. Run dogs and have hunters standing by. Or bait them. I’ve heard of farmers putting cow scraps etc.. in the middle of a field and then laying a few hundred yards away.
I think the problem is that we keep talking about it, but i don’t how many of us actually go after them. I know I keep saying I will, but haven’t yet.
Here you go… Looks to me that it depends on where you live within the City limits. I remember hunting geese and ducks (on the Ottawa River ) at the end of Champlain Road in Cumberland and since 2002 …it’s a NO GO…
check out the map that shows your area to see if you can discharge a firearm…
I have all the maps laminated with my hunting gear and when I go in nearby fields to hunt geese I make sure I have them with me in the event that I am stopped by the authotities.
http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/bylaw/a_z/firearms/index_en.html
Thanks Alain, I will check that out!
Outdoorsguy
Just call a trapper in and can sort the issue out easily enough. 4 spring bridger #3 laminated offsets work awesome. They are pet friendly to boot. Doesn’t take much to catch them, just smart planning.
Jeff,
The neighbouring property owner where I hunt in West Carleton had his 2 dogs attacked by coyotes this fall. Both dogs were chained up in his back yard and could not escape. It cost him over $2,000 to have the dogs stitched up. He has since shot 6 or 7 coyotes during deer season. Oh, and by the way, they saw zero deer.
Same for the hunters across the line, 2 coyotes, no deer.
Maple
I remember, not too long ago, folk were complaining about the exploding deer population. We take over their space, they move into ours. Make sense?
Haven’t seen a coyote that could run faster than a bullet, don’t talk about it, just do it. They are smart, and they adapt to human interaction unless the interaction happens to be a lead innoculation. The more you bring attention to it, the more the armchair wildlife lovers get involved. The media is no help with their labeling them “Coyote killing contests”, what are people supposed to think with a title like that? It’s cruel until a child is attacked, and it’s only a matter of time before the human confrontations escalate in urban areas. No hunter wants their extinction, and I suspect that would be near impossible based on their ability to adapt. my two cents.
Mary,
and as a result of the damage done to make room for that mcmansion and its two acre lawn, or condo, or whatever else, the population of the wildlife near by needs to be managed to ensure a healthy population. This is something that until recently was not done with coyotes.
This title should read “Humans running rampant in Ottawa” 😀
Mcdan, what was that you said?
Outdoorsguy
Glen, I invite you to expand on that comment…
Outdoorsguy
don’t forget Mary, we are at the top of the food chain, what we say goes….got that
just remeber these three letters
S
S
S
Shoot
Shovel
Shutup
Some interesting comments. I live on 100 acres south of Ottawa – sorry in Ottawa. Coyote populations have increased significantly. Saw three out the back window just last week. They do have their upside. They do keep mice, vermin, groundhog populations in check. That said the problems are self evident as well. I do let hunters hunt them and deer but deer populations are not what they used to be. Also fox population seems way down and they keep the smaller vermin in check. Neighbour lost two sheep to coyotes three years ago but by and large they seem to leave his flock alone. A mange break out is due soon by my reckoning.
here come the left wing moron anti hunting scream louder than everyone else can… PETA freak clowns 🙂
Hey Jeff — just curious — what part of the city do you live?
Dave, I live in the east-end, and I always thought coyotes were a problem only experienced in South Ottawa and the west-end, but now
I know that not to be true!
Outdoorsguy
Okay thanks. Ya, I live along the airport parkway by Bank & Walkley. Saw a coyote maybe (3) years ago, not since. Thx. 🙂
I have a few trail cam pics of coyotes and there is definitely a mange problem , have several on camera with no hair on their tail… usually around here whenever you see a set of deer tracks theres usually a coyote track not too far behind it..
Glen, I assume you don’t have a house or reside anywhere then?
In case anyone else had trouble finding today’s Outdoors Column online:
http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/12/07/safety-first-on-ice
Outdoorsguy
Well, I was making light of how the expansion of cities have moved into wildlife territories. I understand that as the population grows the need to build increases, but this does impact the animals that live with us like it or not. Considering the animals are learning to adapt perhaps we should learn to adapt.
Glen:
In the area I live, there has been scant little development over the past 10-years. Sure, a handful of new houses have gone-up, but no major growth to mention, whereas, I have seen the coyote numbers grow exponentially and these were not animals pushed out of other areas.
It is simply a case of a population flourishing with no effective control measures. For all intents and purposes these yotes have continued to expand unabated and there doesn’t seem to be any end in sight!
To blame this on urban development, in my opinion, would be a false assumption..
Outdoorsguy
Here is my question. Why hasn’t anyone connected the dots? Ever since we started putting meat in a green box at the end of our driveways, we have a Coyote problem. Maybe we do away with the costly green box program and the Coyote problem will also go away. Just saying.
mark, out in the country, we haven’t any green boxes, AND we have a coyote problem, lets not try to cloud the issue here.
Yes, shoot all the coyotes, great idea. Then let’s see who steps into their role. You see, we wouldn’t have a coyote problem at all if we hadn’t first wiped out the wolf and cougar population – by shooting/trapping/hunting them. Coyotes did not historically live in the eastern part of North America until the other predators were wiped out. Simple logic – maybe a little to deep for some of the “hunters” out there.
If you want to rank animals by negative human impact, perhaps you should start with the deer. Deer cause close to a thousand collisions per year in the Ottawa area alone, many causing fatalities. Every year. There have been two fatalities attributable to coyotes in North America, since records have been kept. Two. The deer problem is so bad, the City of Ottawa has had to implement a public awareness program at a cost of over one million dollars. Some say the program has reduced the number of fatalities. I would say the coyotes have had just as significant an impact on the number of deer in the area – a good thing, no?
Ask yourself why so many deer? Could it be… lack of predation? No wolves, no cougars, few bears, these are all deer predators, and they’re gone, for the most part – thanks to our brave “hunters”. When you remove coyotes from the equation – who do you think will take their place? Wolves, hybrid wolves and cougars – yes, cougars -are in the area once again. I have no problem with wolves – they are much more timid of humans than coyotes – but cougars are a real problem.
On the other hand, more hunters out hunting means fewer hunters as they inevitably shoot each other. Tough call.
Merry Christmas!
Human activities had a lot to do with the expanded range of the coyote. Here’s an interesting quote from Hinterland Who’s Who:
“European settlers found the coyote on the plains, prairies, and deserts of central and western North America. It appeared to prefer open or semi-wooded habitats. However, about the turn of the twentieth century, the coyote began a dramatic range expansion that is still in progress.
The reasons for the coyote’s expansion are not fully understood but probably include several conditions created by people: the clearing of forests, provision of carrion, or dead animal flesh, from domestic livestock, and the removal of the wolf. The mosaic of grassy fields, brush, and woodlots created by farming areas that were once covered with unbroken forest has provided attractive habitat for the coyote, as well as several other species like the red fox and raccoon.
The coyote has learned to scavenge the carcasses of domestic livestock, much as it still scavenges the carrion left by wolves, where the two species occur together. The removal of the wolf in some areas has meant more to coyotes than the absence of a feared predator. It has meant less competition for many prey animals. For example, in winter, when snow conditions are right, coyotes can kill large ungulates, or hoofed mammals, such as deer, that multiply in the absence of wolves. Also, in hard winters, when these swollen deer populations run out of food, the deer die of starvation, and the resident coyotes enjoy a food bonanza.”
I’m not sure what the best solution would be. There could be unforeseen problems resulting from the culling of coyotes. As indicated above, the elimination of wolves from many areas contributed to the explosion of the coyote population.
Is this not just the predator-prey cycle in action? The decline in deer-car collisions is definitely a benefit. I realize that coyotes kill livestock, but too many deer do alot of damage as well to crops and young trees.
Waiting for my .308 win on order. But in the mean time a shotgun with slugs or buck shot will work if your worried about where the bullet is going ie houses close by.
Dan,
I have to ask you, and well every other activist type out there: What’s with the all or nothing approach you take to your views? Is there a single hunter or trapper out there advocating wiping out the species? Has there ever been a drive to do so? Of course these questions are rhetorical.
The management of coyotes is handled the same way as wolves, open season year round. Now this sounds bad, as if you could grab a gun and head out and pop one whenever you like, except that’s not how it works. Hunts are generally unsuccessful (even deer hunts are only 13% or so successful); so even an open season doesn’t mean a huge kill rate. In areas where the populations can’t support that, the seasons reflect the numbers present.
As for management of deer, there is a reason why there is a hunting season (around 3 months long), as well as the ability for farmers to get nuisance tags to deal with excessive numbers; it is because the population can sustain the hunt. Oh and the collisions are down nearly by 1/2 in the last decade.
Finally, I absolutely love the glib addition at the end, classic of the animal rights activist, completely accepting, if not threatening violence against those they disagree with. Funny that we don’t see similar traits from those with the guns. Seems this shows the breeding of those that oppose hunters might be more apt, than of the hunters themselves.
That’s right Rob, Im not sure why people automatically think we’re in it to wipe out a species..we’re the last ones to ever do that.
Im not sure why that’s the first thing non-hunters come up with when they think hunting. I mean hunters are the ones who came up the concept of conservation afterall.
Outdoorsguy
Too bad there wasn’t a forum where hunters and farmers could communicate with each other.. Lots of farmers with a varmit problem.. lots of hunters wanting to keep sharp over the winter.. No way of talking to each other.. I was thinking of putting an add in the EMC or something.. What do you guys think?
Dead dog walking, I’m not sure if you’ve been to the Outdoors Guy Blog before, but its pretty much exactly that – a forum where hunters, farmers and many others can discuss all these issues and more.
Outdoorsguy
Hi Jeff,
I’ve seen deer around my place in rural South Ottawa this Fall, and found coyote tracks and scat in my woods, but nothing unusual. Our two feral cats aren’t being bothered. The Ottawa SPCA has a great feral cat program BTW – they’ll spay and give shots to your feral cats for $75 each, a real bargain! Of course you have to catch the cats 🙂
I suggested to you last year that your feeding the deer at your place was setting them up for coyotes. Normally the deer and coyotes travel several days apart, and the coyotes feed mostly on mice. If you train the deer to stay in one spot by feeding them you disrupt their natural instincts to evade predators. As someone remarked earlier, in the natural world wolves keep the coyotes in check. I drove through open fields a few winters back, and on the right could see 3 coyotes running away. On the left were two black wolves stalking them. The same irrational fear of wolves has allowed the moose population to explode in Newfoundland. Without wolves to keep them in check, the moose are a major driving hazard. In the big picture it doesn’t matter much what people here do, the animals will continue to work towards a balance between deer and predators as they have for millenia. Just watched “Never Cry Wolf” again. Great story. I recommend you watch it with your kids! I’ve experienced the wolf/dream connection in my own life – they came to me in a dream and showed me the wood stove had malfunctioned and filled the tent I was sleeping in with smoke. Saved my life…
Also, if you want to get a useful Christmas present I recommend the Electronic Deer Alert for your vehicle, $25 at Canadian Tire. I’ve used one at night for years and avoided numerous potential collisions with deer and moose and raccoons and cats and even birds by turning it on. It makes an audible sound, so turn it off in residential areas.
Cheers,
Jim
a.k.a Dreamwolf
Jim, good to hear from you again.
I agree that the lack of timber wolves has only exacerbated the coyote situation. You must keep in mind, however, that the coyote themselves are partially responsible for the demise of the timber wolf in this country.
These highly adaptable animals have managed to out-compete and adapt where the timber wolf was limited by its own biology. Hybridization has also played a part in the wolf’s downfall, I’m sure.
We cannot blame the hunter/trapper alone for the low wolf numbers. And I’m sorry Jim, but Never Cry Wolf always brings to mind Anthropomorphism…
Outdoorsguy
I like Christmas Lights…..They remind me of animal rights activists.
They hang together, half of them don’t work and the one’s that do aren’t very bright….
Good one Trapper!
Outdoorsguy
Thanks for your thoughtful comments Fishr and Jim Poushinsky. It’s gratifying to know some people have done their homework and used their common sense in this discussion.
First of all, I am no “activist”, just a living, breathing, thing naturally concerned about the planet and what we’re doing to it. I’m not sure why “activist” is a derogatory term – I wish I were more active in defending the principles I hold dear. All activists hope to do is bring the spotlight to their issue.
Second, please allow me to respond to your rhetorical questions, Rob. No, you’re right, no one has suggested killing all the coyotes, except me. I apologize if that’s what you took away from my comment about “shoot all the coyotes”. I inferred from the recent and complete extinction of wolves and cougars in the vicinity of human populations that it could happen to the coyotes too, and will if this fear-mongering continues.
If you choose to live near nature, then you may have learn to live with it, no? I find it rather scary that, in a discussion with presumed hunters and gun-owners, even the writer of this column does not seem to understand the laws regarding discharging firearms in populated areas, or the tagging requirements for shooting wolves and coyotes. It is definitely not “open season” on coyotes and wolves – just in the southern, occupied areas below Algonquin Park – where we have too many deer. Cui bono? Only hunters.
Hunters are a powerful political force. Though very small in numbers, they are very vocal when challenged. They believe they have a god-given right to hunt and kill, which we all do when necessary to survive, but these hunters believe it so even if it is just for sport, and care very little for the effects of their policies, so long as we never try to infringe on this right, or rite, as the case may be.
The hunting lobby even make contrarian claims, as a poster above has done, that they are responsible for “the whole conservation thing”. Nonsense. The only conservation that hunters are concerned about is the maintenance of their hunting stock, which has no bearing whatsoever on the natural balance of predators and their prey. What has happened, in every case, all over the world, is the removal of competing predators – think wolves, lions, tigers, bears – to the detriment of all else. They even call these policies “wildlife management”.
As to the ersatz Mr St. Denis’ comments on my, or any non-gun owners, breeding, I take it where it’s coming from. Obviously, irony is too subtle for your manly sensibilities. Oh, and I have owned bows and guns, hell I’ve even killed a few animals in my time. Aside from the mercy killings, I regret every one of them.
We don’t have a coyote problem, we have a people problem.
Dan Millar, you come off as quite the authority on hunting and conservation, I only wish the ‘hunting lobby’ was a powerful as you claim…
Just wondering, though, at one point you elude to killing animals yourself and feeling remorseful, and later you refer to yourself as a ‘non gun owner’….sounds a bit conflicted to me. Are you struggling with some inner demons perhaps?
Though you seem to know all there is regarding Conservation, I suggest you enlighten yourself with some readings of Theodore Roosevelt(a hunter) and Aldo Leopold(also a hunter)
The reason the ‘writer of this column’ is asking about small-game seasons and firearms regulation is that he has never hunted coyotes in eastern ON. The reason for this post was to determine the best course of action with regards to our predator numbers….hunting being one of them.
The writer, evidently, should have asked YOU these questions first as you seem to have all the answers.
Outdoorsguy
P.S. Although I am sure you already know…Theodore Roosevelt, besides being the 26th President of the USA is considered to be the Father of Conservation. Aldo Leopold(Scientist, Outdoor Writer) is considered the father of Wildlife Management. Both men were active hunters.
Dan miller you are incorrect. There have been a vast number of studies that confirm that no matter how many you shoot, there will continue to be coyotes. The number may drop for a few years but will return to the “pre hunt ” numbers. There has also been peer reviewed studies as well that confirm that coyotes live near humans and are never seen, which you may think we are taking over there land we just dont see them also there are also more peer reviewed studies that also confirm that human garbage has no influence on coyote and human conflict … I hunt inside Algoquin park for the last 18 years and up untill the last 3 years have never seen a wolf (once again the do gooders want to save the wolf so called red wolf which has been proven they are not the red wolf) now we see them all the time and you think there are too many deer up there, maybe you should get out the deer herd up there is in bad shape. the only reason the wolves are not shot in the park is because of money…. people come from all over ontario and the usa to here the wolves howl at night,for whose benefit? for what purpose?MONEY
Dan:
I’m struggling with how to respond to your post……After much thought and consideration the word “ESOTERIC” comes to mind. Which is a nice way of saying I’m trying to see your point of view but I can’t get my head that far up my ass…Having said that however, I am a firm believer in biodiversity and population management.
not quite accurate. I drive the country roads every night and the population this year is quite low compared to others.
John Armstrong, your area must be the only one in this region where coyote numbers are low.
Outdoorsguy
I did not identify myself as a non-gun owner, please read more carefully before you start making ridiculous characterizations. If you aren’t conflicted by killing animals for no good reason, then perhaps you should examine your own demons?
Theodore Roosevelt is not considered the “father of conservation” by anyone except hunters who are trying to make the bogus case that they are somehow conserving nature by killing it. Roosevelt’s acts of conservation were all about forestry and national parks and optics, not preserving wildlife. Read up on Gifford Pinchtot – the man behind Roosevelt’s conservation efforts. Pinchtot’s lumber baron father was concerned that after he and his lumber baron buddies had cut all the old growth, there would be nothing to take its place. Some even say he was conflicted by the rapacious nature of his wealth – demons?
Teddy didn’t care about game animals – unless he was shooting them. He killed six rare white Rhinos while on an African hunting expedition for the Smithsonian and others to supply specimens for exhibition. Conservation and Naturalism started long before “Teddy” jumped on the bandwagon, Ottawa’s own Field Naturalists predate Roosevelt by at least fifty years, and they have been champions of conservation since the 1850’s. A large number of hunters were also naturalists, once upon a time, but the only conservation they were promoting was conservation of game.
As to your “theory” that coyotes themselves are partially responsible for the demise of the “timber wolf”, I’ll just throw that, along with all your other scientific facts like “coyote numbers are insane” and ” coyotes are running rampant in Ottawa” in the recycle bin. Are you serious? If coyotes are “taking a dump on your lawn” and “varmints creating havoc around my place”, I’d have to guess they read your column.
Dan Millar wrote:
“As to the ersatz Mr St. Denis’ comments on my, or any non-gun owners, breeding…”
This statement certainly implies that you are among the non-gun owners group…although, you seem very defensive about that. Do you own firearms which aren’t registered by chance?
Outdoorsguy
Alright Dan, I was going to stay out of this discussion because I normally find the views and opinions of green activists (for a lack of a better term) to be hatefull and derogatory despite very good arguments from the other side. You managed to prove this very well by even encouraging deadly hunting accidents. Simply disgusting.
But this next quote is what I have a real problem with: “They believe they have a god-given right to hunt and kill, which we all do when necessary to survive, but these hunters believe it so even if it is just for sport, and care very little for the effects of their policies, so long as we never try to infringe on this right, or rite, as the case may be. ”
1. This is a very common misconception from the green activists. As hunters, we all care a great deal about the animals and the envirnment. I will make a clear distinction: poachers are not hunters. we can find a common ground in this debate by separating poachers and hunters. If you read this blog beyond this article, you will notice we share an opinion here.
2. You’re right, we do think it’s our god-given right to hunt for our survival. In fact, I wish more people would understand where their shelf-grown meat comes from. Maybe they would reduce stuffing their faces with Genetically Modified pork, hormone boosted beef, and pesticide fed chicken (not directed at farmers, but at the farming industry). Also, the shipping of our meat, produce, and packaged food from all over the world has a much worse effect on the environment than hunting does. I consider hunters and fishers to be far greater environmentalists than the activists. We try to eat off the land as much as possible. We reduce our dependance on packaged food and support clean and expanded natural habitats.
3. We do fight for our right to hunt, mostly because we constantly get wronglfully accused of poaching and our rights are always questioned and threatened by green activists, just as you did in your comments.
Excellent, GPG!
Be careful though, I think he’s got skeletons (& possible a few rifles) in his closet…hehe
Outdoorsguy
btw, I am working on an Official ‘Coyote Q&A’ with Biologists from the Kemptville District MNR.
Those questions and answers will be posted here shortly.
Outdoorsguy
I dont know dan millar, but Roosevelt is a hero in my eyes where would we be today with out him…. Roosevelt’s First Annual Message as President on December 3, 1901, ” Wise forest protection does not mean the withdrawal of forest resources … from contributing their full share to the welfare of the people, but, on the contrary, gives the assurance of larger more certain supplies.” That snippet exactly embodies “wise-use.” Conserve now, more for later.
can’t ask for anything more
Dan,
Activist is a derogatory term for one very basic reason, their fanatical nature. They see not reason, but passion, and blinded therein refuse to see information contrary to their own biases. This is seen many a time here when folks of your ilk come forth to discuss the ills of hunting without the understanding that comes from actually speaking to hunters. This was seen in your post where you spoke of killing all coyotes as well in the back peddling that came when you spoke of fear mongering.
The extinction your speak of, is of earlier times, when we didn’t understand the cycles that go with populations, and the effects we had on them. This isn’t borne on the backs of hunters alone, but of society in general. This effect isn’t seen any longer, as an example look at the elk and turkey populations which have not only been reintroduced and are flourishing, but are now at a number that can allow for sustainable hunting.
Living near nature does not infer suffering the damage and attacks that nature provides. And this is seen in how predator hunting proceeds; namely in open fields where those that cause problems tend to roam, as opposed to off in the bush where they aren’t a problem.
For laws, we are all aptly aware of when and where we can hunt. Many towns and villages have no laws with respect to discharging firearms, and even those that do (such as Ottawa) have areas inside their borders in which it is acceptable. All of such laws are only municipal bylaws by the way. The author of this post did exactly what he should have done, asked for assistance.
Seasons are defined by your location, and those of us down here, have an open season, in as much as there is no end, and there is no limit. As I explained before, this does not affect the population as a whole in a negative sense as seen by the population boom despite the wide season.
It is absolutely foolish to believe that those of us that spend a great deal of time and effort observing and monitoring our local populations are unaware of the benefits of predators. Not only do they bring forth a healthier population, but, those of us in the trapping trade also benefit from the predators that end up in our traps. Simply put, wiping out a predator for the benefit of prey is shooting ourselves in the foot. Again, we see the fanaticism so ill brought by activism.
Now, to counter your guilt as found from shooting (and presumably consuming the meat) of animals, I can tell you definitively, I have killed hundreds if not thousands over my time, and I do not feel guilt for any.
… I sure hope these rifles in the closet are properly registered…
Again with the ridiculous characterizations. “More hunters out hunting…” etc. was a facetious statement. As to the “gun-owners” statement – you can recognize punctuation, can’t you? Simply remove the commas and the statement within and you get “as to my … breeding”. Get it now?
“Shelf-grown meat”? You mean the meat on the grocer’s shelves, or meat that’s grown on a shelf? Whatever the implication, store-bought meat comes from domesticated animals. Did you hunters miss the memo, circa 10,000 BC, we have domesticated animals now, and agriculture, so you don’t have to hunt down your food? Saying you hunt for survival is inane, or that you need to hunt to exorcise some primitive urge – equally inane. There is no need to hunt in our modern civilisation – why don’t you just put down the guns and join us at the grocery stores?
Seems a little late in the game to be conferring with biologists – shouldn’t you have done that before putting the car in gear? Here’s some advice, take it or leave it. Don’t feed your animals outdoors. Don’t feed wild animals. Don’t leave garbage or open compost outside. Educate yourself about the animals in your environment.
I am not, once again, a green or any kind of activist. I am simply not a hunter, like the vast majority of Canadians, I only shoot animals with a camera now. If I own a gun, it is for the protection of property and people only, and simply none of your business. As I mentioned, hunters get really upset if you question their need to hunt.
Chessy, thanks for reinforcing what I already said – Teddy Roosevelt was all about forest conservation and national parks – not conservation for the sake of nature, but for the sake of man. In his own words:
“To waste, to destroy, our natural resources, to skin and exhaust the land instead of using it so as to increase its usefulness, will result in undermining in the days of our children the very prosperity which we ought by right to hand down to them amplified and developed.” Teddy was a great president, but there’s no need to burden him with some heritage he did not invite.
Hey Dan , you’re such a conservationist .. how much time do you spend each year speaking to wildlife bioligists , conservation officers , how much of your hard earned money goes back into our conservation authority ??? im really curious what share do you have invested in our wildlife management ?? before you go insulting folks on here why do take a long hard look at who is genuinely concerned for our wildlife population in this province …. sad the lack of respect you show for the people in this blog who actually do give a crap !
Dan,
I have to say, as a farmer, that you really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the benefits of hunting over farming.
A farmed animal requires cleared land dedicated to it’s growth. A hunted animal on the other hand, shares the land with others (this is what we call biodiversity).
A farmed animal is bred and bred and bred to make it the largest in the shortest period of time, they are also very similar from one to the next as a result. A hunted animal is one that happens to be there at the time, leading to diversity again.
A farmed animal eats a relatively homogenous mix of food. A hunted animal eats what is available on its travels. Again, diversity.
A farmed animal, even pasture raised, does not live a free life. A hunted animal is wild and uses its muscles creating a much leaner and healthier meat.
The list goes on. But the net result is all farming does is provides cheap meat.
Dan you remind me of a local politician who was against hunting and trapping. He presented a bill while in office banning hunting and trapping in the then township of Nepean.
One of his arguments was the terrible taking of life of beavers along Moodie Drive. In his statement he said between 2 and 10 beavers were being KILLED EVERY YEAR in these wetlands. This in his mind this was a terrible waste of life for the fashion industry.
He claimed to be a conservationist with animal welfare his objective.
Yet at the same council meeting he introduced another bill to allow the filling in and construction of these same wetlands thus KILLING EVERY Beaver FOREVER as well as all other wildlife that inhabits this land.
So who really is the conservationist the trapper/hunter who sustains/maintains wildlife and wetlands for everyone to use like Roosevelt or someone like you who is a person who would rather scavenge his meat at the local grocery store?
@ DAN MILLAR how come every time your kind starts to lose a battle or a argument you bring out the grammer police …. also if you save the forests you save the animals do you not
Dan, clearly you have made a distinction between wild animals, and domesticated (farmed) animals. Please explain to me what this distiction is, and why you feel that it is better for everyone to be killing and eating farmed animals.
What’s the difference? Have we taken the time to explain to them why they’ve been selected since birth be be caged, fattened, killed and eaten? Perhaps these animals don’t feel the pain and suffering? Perhaps they have accepted their duties and strive to be the absolute best at what they were born to be… table food.
I honestly don’t get it, explain to me why we “brave hunters” should all “put down the guns and join us at the grocery stores.”
Like I said, challenge the hunters and this is what you get from most of the replies here – nonsense. Where and how I spend my time is none of your concern – where’s your argument? Here’s the perfect forum and opportunity, and this is the best you can do – an ad hominem attack? Try making an argument in favour of hunting, sport hunting in particular – you could be the first!
I haven’t insulted anyone here directly, so you can put that up GPG’s ass, where his head is still apparently stuck. If you really “give a crap”, then help GPG get his head out of his ass and let’s hear your thoughts.
As for you Mr. St. Denis, activist is not a derogatory term unless it is used as such. I’m just saying that “shoot the coyotes” is a knee-jerk reaction. A little thought before pulling the trigger goes a long way. I’ve never felt guilty about eating animal meat, but I have felt guilty for killing innocent animals for sport – and as a trapper, I would expect you would feel the same way about killing for sport.
To assume we now magically understand the prey/predator relationship is one assumption too far. We don’t. We may understand it a bit better than say a hundred years ago, but to say we have it figured is just so much hyperbole. The observations of hunters and trappers are indeed valuable, but not the whole picture, and neither objective nor scientific. For that, you need biologists, naturalists and other arm’s-length researchers. You might as well ask Oil company executives to evaluate green energy – there’s a conflict of interest don’t you think?
If you missed as many shots when you were hunting as you have in your replies, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Dan
Who are you to decide that killing a domestic animal is better that killing a wild animal?
God?
I’ll decide for myself, you decide for yourself, stop thrusting your beliefs on other people.
I prefer wild, I don’t really like the fact that animals live their whole life inside a barn or a pen only to be fattened up and killed, but I don’t whine and complain about your way of surviving, I do my thing and you should STFU and do your thing
As far as killing coyotes, I don’t hunt them, but I have no problem with people that do, see I’m not some left wing nut trying to push my beliefs on other people
Jeff, why do you give these people our forum, if we went on their nut forums we’d be bounced so fast we wouldn’t know what hit us
Ok folks, we are getting way off task here, and why? Because of one guy with a computer and a superiority complex??
It’s like that kid in school who enjoys getting in trouble just for the attention..negative attention..any attention! It seems we have fallen for it big time.
Dan Millar, you have received more than enough of our precious attention for my liking..and you have also started singling out specific contributors in your attack of us.
You can ask anyone around, I give EVERYONE a fair shake here at the Outdoors Guy Blog..including those with different views…and we’ve had some very constructive chats over the past two years. Heck, we have non-hunters who enjoy stopping by now and then.
This discussion has, sadly, spiralling out of control and I feel it is because of you.
You know what Mr Millar; the average person here has probably forgotten more about the outdoors than you’ll ever know. Better get back on your Mac and research another Forum or Blog to harass…you won’t be doing it here any longer.
You’re gone!
Outdoorsguy
Dan,
All you have done is insult us, I’m not sure why you think that because you haven’t outright said as much it makes any difference, implicit or explicit, it is all the same.
Hell even right now you are insulting us by suggesting that we just blindly go and kill things for fun. That is far from the truth.
As for understanding, of course we have plenty of learning to go through, but, I would say that given the populations we hunt and trap these days are doing quite well, I’d say we are doing pretty good.
Conflict of interest? It is in our best interests on all levels to maintain a healthy population. How do we get that through your activist mind? If there are no more coyotes, we can’t hunt and trap them. The same goes for every other animal (including deer).
Rob, Iggy, Rick, and everyone else..I’m sorry for not pulling the plug earlier.
Now moving on, I can’t wait to hear back from the MNR on the questions I filed this am…the bio i know in Kemptville was explaining the process which is typical of any gov’t agency. There are many different layers to the onion.
I’ll keep you posted on that!
Outdoorsguy
“why dont we join you at the grocery store”. with the way things are going, in farming there are 4000 breeds of animals and we are loosing 2 breeds a week.. so there could be none left. then you will crawling up our ass to find food, which you dont have the balls to shoot
Domestic animals are becoming extinct at the rate of two breeds per week. One thousand domestic species have vanished in the past 100 years.
QUICK POLL
What’s your favorite farm animal?
cow
pig
chicken
sheep
goat
Take another poll
Scientists say commercial farmers rely on certain species that produce the most meat or milk. As worldwide agriculture becomes more standardized, these economically productive breeds are adopted all over the world, often making indigenous animals unnecessary.
Poultry and Pigs Predominate
The international pig and chicken industries rely on the fewest varieties. But hundreds of different types of buffalo, yaks, ducks, goats, sheep, cattle, and ostriches are also in danger.
About one third of the 259 recorded types of domestic farm animals in the U.S. and Canada could disappear soon.
Danger in Uniformity
Using the same breeds all over the world is potentially hazardous because a species that thrives in one climate may not do as well in another. It also may lack resistance to local diseases.
If a specific species of animal or plant becomes infected with a disease, it could wipe out entire industries. For example, the Dutch elm trees once ubiquitous in American cities were nearly wiped out by disease in the 1950s.
More diversity has been proven to slow the spread of illness. A Chinese experiment recently showed that certain types of contagious plant disease spread more slowly when farmers planted more than one variety of rice.
@JEFF EASY ON THE MAC COMMENTS LOL
Sorry Chess…I couldnt resist
Outdoorsguy
Dan , the only nonsense is coming directly from you !! to think you have a better grasp or greater knowledge of our wildlife sustainability is an absolute joke !!talk about being biased !! hunting is an effective way of controlling animal populations END OF STORY .. it has been for many many years and yes some call it a sport! to the ministry of natural resources it is an effective tool to control wildlife populations .Maybe you should try to prove otherwise if you disagree ….like i said hunters dont need to prove what were doing is useful . believe me we wouldnt be the first to make such claims… save your long winded rhetoric for a P.E.TA.. blog somewhere else…
Yeah Matt, that was enough of that eh.
Outdoorsguy
Good call jeff
I think I touched a nerve. So, my head is up my ass… Is that what the bad smell is? And I thought it was all this BS coming out of your mouth, Dan. lol
Good call Jeff to end this, but I couldn’t let Dan go without a parting shot
for sure 100% a person like Dan has never ever visited a slaughterhouse when cattle,pigs etc.. are beign slaughtered and thats part of the problem with these bozos they live in a bubble and have no clue
here’s a good story that ended well…
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/12/12/bc-bear-downtown-vancouver.html
don’t worry about it Jeff, it’s kind of comical, I just get offended when someone says a head is stuck up an a$$ because I’ve been told many a time that mine is but for the life of me I just can’t seem to do it.
i think the only reason we can say for sure that dan millar’s head isnt stuck in his own a$$ is that i m pretty sure his head is the size of a giant pumpkin ….obviously far larger than any of ours ..lol
Am I to understand that all radical tree hugging armchair conservationists are being painted with the same MAC software? Shame on you hunters…..
Wait, what was this blog taking about again?
No wonder hunters have a bad name, I watched the hunting channel a while back when it was on free trial and there was an episode in Mexico or Columbia or similar. The hosts were pumped up for a “big cat” hunt, a predator in the bush lands. Anyway Pedro and his pack of hounds goes off into the country side while dudes sit around in their camo, talking, waiting. They can hear the dogs working and all of a sudden there is some activity, apparently they have a cat so it gets all hurried from there. Gets to the spot where Pedro pints up and great white hunter one walks under the tree that the 20 dogs and 10 people have put this cat into, aims up and shoots it with his bow. Then these two dudes are high fiving like they just stalked it and brought it down with a jack knife. I hunt, and that left me thinking what was the point of that slaughter, and how could anyone make the story of that hunt exciting. That is why a lof of people like Dan get pissed off with hunters. Yes I hunt, yes I eat it because I can.
Yes Johan, I have those sort of shows before…and the distinction, which needs to be made between that and most people here is care and respect. I don’t know many hunters who have such ‘distain’ and disrespect’ for an animal to treat them in such a way.
And btw..I was simply looking for a word to rhyme with ‘back’ in that whole Mac remark, nothing more..I know lots of hunters who use them.
Outdoorsguy
Hey Guys,
Sorry I missed the Dan Conversation.
I’m always amazed that these dogooders are always on a so called “higher morale ground” when they discuss their objections.
A few observations when picking out these guys.
1. They will always come on and always call any statistics or written papers as pure speculation and bull yet never provide any concrete or supported facts themselves.
2. They will always maintain that their insults are good natured whereas any one else “discussing” against their point of view is malicious and unkind.
3. They will be the first one to pick out grammatical errors, this is to demean the posters who are too lazy to hit the spell check button (I’m one of them) as to prove that their intelligence is far superior than others, so that it proves that they must be right.
4. Any factual evidence presented will be regarded as “nonsence or incorrect”.
5. They are always right you are always wrong
6. Finally the insults will come out. “Hunters are cruel,
I’ve been polite, you all are wrong and I’m right, therefore I have the right to demean you at every opportunity”
All I can say is that at least you open the forum to them. Try posting on the activists sites.
As for the coyotes, I’m not sure what the answer is; from what I can see, they will never be removed from the area now as they have really entrenched themselves . These predators seem to be less afraid to move into populated areas and less discriminate about what they prey on.
Unchecked it will only get worse, but I think we are getting past that point anyway.
Tom, we missed you buddy…can always count on you for putting things in perspective.
Keep in mind this is a first for me, never have I had to block someone from the site before. And you read through all the comments..was I wrong? We each presented a good, well thought-out argument for conservation and he basically called us a bunch of no-nothing Neanderthals.
Sure we snapped back with some remarks of our own but it was pretty well contained I thought. The problem was, the overall climate and level of animosity was escalating and, anyhow, the decision was made and I stand by it.
This is not to say that those with differing opinions are not allowed. Anyone who frequents the site knows that not to be the case.
Now, what were we talking about again?
Outdoorsguy
Jeff,
As always this blog will have those who disagree with the outdoor gamers point of view. That being said, there comes a time when those who disagree are coming from an emotional point of view. I understand that as most others who read your blog do.
I’m not aware of anyone you’ve blocked for their beliefs which is important because it’s the only way to encourage honest debate on the issues that pop up time to time.
I’ve also seen fair reporting on issues that aren’t in the favour of the hunter which also shows that you don’t hide from the negative side of hunting (poaching, waste etc) Instead of hiding it you report it. This reafirms that the great majority of gamesmen are conservators of the industry.
Reading Dan’s diatribes only proved my earlier points brought up. There was no interest on his part to debate, bute to incite. It was solely propoganda, hoping to bring negative reactions from your readers. His attempt to insult those hiding behind the veil or moral superiority came accross as selve serving.
He may have brought up a good point or two, but was wasted on the condesending tone of his comments.
I have no issue with stopping comments like his since they did not bring value to the discussion.
The moment the insults start to fly, it’s time to say goodbye.
Keep up the good work. You and your regular posters have made this a great site to visit, and I for one am glad that you tackle the hard issues head on. Again – do you think PETA would be interested in open debate?
For those who are against hunting, you will always have a voice here, but remember treat others with respect, read their words and disagree all you want, but please leave your insults out of this. No one wants this to be a trolling site.
@jeff maybe it is my MAC but your post count is not working again .. it is a pain in the ass it only shows 29 post to this topic but once inside it show 89 …..
I noticed that also Chess..seems to happen from time to time.
My guess is they don’t like to post our real count, because it might make people feel jealous..hehe…kidding of course. It’s prob just a glitch..those darn Macs!
Outdoorsguy
IF they posted your real post count you would have your own column every week. and maybe your own tv show.
on another note just got daughters pass port ..hopefully things go well and spend another christmas south…
Wishing Everybody including PETA a very “Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year….. hope this don’t get deleted seeing i said Merry Christmas
Not sure about that Chessy…
Hopefully you have a good trip to your fav home-away-from-home. I guess the dust has settled there since the big uprising last week?
Outdoorsguy
Outdoors Guy:
In my opinion, coyotes must be aggressively hunted when they encroach on human settlements. It is extremely important to instill fear into the population. Otherwise, they will continue to see us(and our pets) as a buffet upon which they can feast.
I am curious to know why I rarely encounter coyotes where I hunt at my cottage in WMU58. In 30 years, I have rarely seen a coyote. I do hear them yapping in the distance on winter nights, but have never known them to come close to humans. Why is it that they are a problem in some areas and not in others?
Hunting Mom
Holy Sh$t Jeff!
I saw your blog about the coyotes. Haven’t checked you out for a long time, and it looks like I missed out on a pretty heated “conversation” with your friend, Dan!
You guys are way too sensitive. Don’t let guys like Dan bug you so much. Let it go….
Yeah, it’s me again. Not your animal activist, or PETA supporter, just your average animal and nature lover.
I live in a wooded area east of Ottawa. We’re surrounded by coyotes, or bush wolves or whatever they are. Every evening we hear coyotes howling. It usually starts with a lot of yipping, and gradually it turns into a series of howls.
My three dogs, Shep/lab, Newf. and Golden x, answer back in a chorus of howls, except for the Newf,who sounds like a seal!
We enjoy the coyotes. Occasionally we see one. I’ve found a lot of evidence when I’m out walking, tracks, flattened areas where they have bedded down, bones,etc. My daughter found their “bathroom”, which interestingly enough showed their passion for apples! (We have a number of wild apple trees on the property.)
We don’t seem to see as many deer as we used to, and fox are rare. But this year, we have seen a resurgence of rabbits again. It’s all cyclical. If the deer declines they will move on and search for them elsewhere.
There was one occasion when my Golden had a stand off with a coyote. It was comical to watch. I think that the coyote was a young one and acted very dog – like, rolling and arching his rear end with his front legs stretched out in front of him. There was no sign of aggression. My dog seemed a little perplexed! They were about 30-40 feet from each other. I thought that that was close enough, and clapped my hands loudly and he took off. My dogs won’t chase them because they’re obedient and have been trained to listen to me, so he didn’t run after him.
What I suggest is for people to calm down a bit. If it gets to a point where I can’t walk in the woods with my dogs without worrying about a possible attack, then perhaps I might consider a cull, but for now, i think that they’re a lot more afraid of us, and I think we should respect them and leave em alone. 🙂
Carole:
The fact that the coyote came that close to you and your dog tells me that there is a real problem. Coyotes should fear humans, but they don’t. I think that could turn into a dangerous situation.
Huntingmom
Carol K and huntingmom…welcome back!
Outdoorsguy
I knew she’d be back,,,,,,,,I think she’s stalking us……
Hunting Mom,
I think that the coyotes that you and I are familiar with are naturally timid of people.
Urban coyotes are enticed by our green bins ( also appreciated by many raccoons) and other garbage bins. Outdoor cats also help to draw them into our suburbs. Gradually they get bolder and more used to urban characteristics.
We have to get rid of the food source. My aunt lives in Phoenix, Arizona. They had a similar pro
Hunting mom,
Sorry, my cat jumped on my iPad.
What I was saying was, in Arizona, where coyotes are plentiful, they have hidden garbage containers, in the ground. They have no garbage bins or cans. It’s very neat, and ritually odorless. It’s non accessible.
QUOTE CAROL “Outdoor cats also help to draw them into our suburbs”
You use the term “outdoor cats” as if it’s an acceptable practice.
As far as I’m concerned any stray cat is fare game for coyotes and I hope they rid of every last one of them, the cat’s that is.
For those irresponsible cat owner’s who read this, please tie your cat up or keep it in the house.
Ok folks, after looking back through the comments and speaking with the powers that be, I have decided to let Dan Millar back in.
I guess my main intention for the ban was to keep things civil and put an end to escalating insults. I realize now I must take some ownership in that and others should as well. Although the man certainly hit a nerve with many of us..I understand now that he did not say anything grievous enough to be turfed altogether.
I sent him a pm explaining my decision with hopes that things can remain civil should he decide to return, and I would ask that the rest of you do the same. I am told that shutting the post off for comments is my best course of action in these situations – something that none of us want. I know I don’t, especially because of the severity of coyote situation.
Thanks, and I hope you understand..here’s to hoping that things can remain professional on the Outdoors Guy Blog. It is really the only local platform we have to discuss hunting, fishing and conservation.
Thanks,
Outdoorsguy
I thought you took the right decision Jeff. Dan was not bringing anything new to the conversation, and he did make personal insults and an apparent joking threat. But I also agree in talking it out. I was actually having fun poking holes in Dan’s comments!
As for your comments about the coyotes, I like your perspective of enjoying their presence. But as a friendly word of caution, these are wild animals! It wouldn’t take much to have them turn on you or your dogs, just one bad move. Especially if they are in a group. In an instant, it could be too late to react.
I love animals, but I wouldn’t take any chances with coyotes, wolves, or bears!
That second part of my comment was for Carol
I agree, cats should be kept inside, not to mention that we have far too many strays reproducing like crazy.
I’m cautious with my dogs H. M. I’m quite aware of the pack mentality. This was one occasion, which involved one young coyote. My dogs don’t go into the woods at night, or early evening. They only venture off into the woods when they’re walking with me during the day, but stay close by.
The coyotes in Arizona are very timid of people, at least in my aunt’s area. I only saw one while I was there for a week, and it raced by me so fast that i hardly had a good look at it. People there keep their cats in. They’ve had more than enough experience with coyotes, and the food sources just aren’t available to draw them in.( i.e exposed garbage bins) I think that we could learn from people who live in the coyote’s natural habitat.
Carol ( without an “e”) I’m Scottish descent, not French
Carol K, I suppose one of the big differences between those western coyotes and the eastern coyotes is size.
From what I know, those little Arizona yotes might weigh 30-40 pounds, at best…whereas the eastern coyote(brush wolf) can push 80 pounds and more.
Outdoorsguy
Glad to be welcomed back with open arms, Jeff!
Trapper, you know I could never stalk you. Only you guys are the experts in that field! 🙂
Carol, I must warn you against letting your dogs run free. Not only is it illegal, but it is dangerous should they come across a legal trap in the woods.
(3) The owner of a dog or any other person responsible for a dog shall not permit it to run at large,
(a) during the open season for a species of big game in an area prescribed for the purpose of subsection (2); or
(b) during the closed season for a species of big game in an area usually inhabited by that species. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (14).
For those who are interested, I just added a series of photos above – showing a pack of coyotes taking down a huge whitetail buck..(Warning, the images are very graphic)
Jeff
Wow what a catch on the cam, I seem to only come across the end results http://www.rltrapping.ca/deer.jpg is one from my back yard this year.
Have to point out that they won’t eat the remainder of that deer, they typically won’t be back soon enough for there to be any left after the other predators and scavengers do their thing.
Wow, where were these photos taken? I’m surprised to see the coyotes attacking the hind-quarters rather than the neck. I suppose because of the deer’s ability to defend so well from the front?
GPG, wolves, coyotes, hyenas, lions etc all usually attack from the rear first. They slow the animal down by biting the tendon on the hind legs. (the equivilent of yours and my achilles tendon). The prey looses control of their hind feet. once this is cut. I’ve seen similar attacks on full sized Bull moose. It can be rather disturbing but it’s mother nature……..
Outdoors Guy:
I posted a comment earlier today but it somehow disappeared into cyberspace.
I wanted to say that hunting is the only way to solve the coyote problem. Yes, we should take care not to leave garbage out, etc., but essentially it is not up to us to adapt our ways to accommodate coyotes. We are at the top of the food chain and we should behave that way. We should never allow the coyote population to lose its fear of humans.
Huntingmom
Hunting Mom, I’m sorry about that..I looked around but couldn’t find the comment you were referring to. Those sorts of things do happen on occasion, I apologize for that. Usually the missing ones get sent to spam folder where I need to recover then approve them. If you include a link, that always happens.
Outdoorsguy
Hey Rob,
I agree with you about dogs running free, except when it’s on my own property, which is about 40 acres, mostly wooded, some pasture. I trust that there are no traps on it, as it is private property, and no hunting allowed. (sorry!) I think that I have a legal right to let my dogs go on my own property. As I said before, they’re trained to respond to me, keep close by, and won’t run off my land. Believe me, I can’t stand people who aren’t responsible with their dogs. Unfortunately, we see an occasional stray dog, as well as cats.
I know that the bush wolves/coyotes around here are potentially dangerous. I’m just saying, that if we’re careful we should be able to co – exist.
If they’re becoming too complacent in the city outskirts, we have to install fear into them again. I’m not sure how, but I’d bet that they would hate loud noises, as in gunshots, to scare them, or something similar. They do that with nuisance bears as well as use those bear dogs, but I think that the dogs wouldn’t be as effective against coyotes, especially against a pack. Bears are usually more solitary as you know.
If you guys have a chance, check out Daily Planet. They’re talking about the Eastern Wolf/ coyotes on this episode.(Sc. Chanel)
Maybe if I had a little Yorkie or something, I might feel differently. I can understand how people are getting concerned, but there’s also a danger of paranoid
i cant believe how much of that buck they left to the vultures. would they come back to that kill i wonder?
pretty wild to get that on game cam. i’ve heard some people say that coyotes would never take down a big deer only fawns. proofs there.
GPG they will attack from behind to get at the big tendon on back legs so that deer will go down and not be able to walk or run away. then its game over for deer
Mcdan/trapper, I’m not high enough on my horse to admit I didnt realize that predators ‘specifically targeted’ the tendons in the hind quarters…I was probably taught that, but have forgotten the detail. Certainly makes sense.
If you guys recall the deer I mentioned in a previous column..one I had seen several times during my hunt in Montebello…it was a older doe travelling in a family group with two young fawns and a yearly doe. First time I saw her I noticed she was a bit lame…then I examined some trail cam pics a bit more closely. (I’ll see if I can dig up those images) Here’s a link to that article(Deer hunt delight in Montebello):
http://www.ottawasun.com/author/jeff-morrison
Up and down her hind legs were, what looked like pockets of infection…both legs seemed to have it. She was coping and there were no open sores, but she certainly had a bad limp.
Thinking back now, I suspect these may have been old injuries from a coyote or wolf attack which, had since healed over. I guess she was very lucky.
First time I had ever seen it but it’s all making sense now. I also saw a HUGE black timber wolf during that hunt..one of the largest wolves I’ve ever seen….and there are brush wolves(eastern coyote) up there as well.
Outdoorsguy
The show, Daily Planet, basically were talking about the decline of the Eastern Wolf, and the increase of the hybrid species, wolf/coyote. Using DNA samples, they concluded that the wolf is still pretty stable in Algonquin Park, but that hybrids are becoming more and more common elsewhere, as they have more contact with each other, and therefore have been identified as a new species. The pure species of eastern wolf is now considered endangered as we know it. Thats another issue isn’t it?
They didn’t go into any issues regarding coyotes and people.
I’m having trouble with my stupid iPad, checking out…
Carol K, my kids watch Daily Planet and I have as well..they seem to cover some very interesting topics….nothing beats Swamp People for me though….hehe….schooot em schoot em!!
Outdoorsguy
hi jeff this season i observed alot of coyotes shot 3 hung them upside down from a tree with their guts torn out have not seen any in this section since i will keep baiting and shooting these cockroaches
Carol, ya it would be a good bet that there aren’t any traps on your property, but the law remains, we’re in deer territory and private property or not they aren’t to be off leash.
Mike, lets hope you didn’t leave the pelt to spoil?
Rob there is no law about letting you dog loose on your own property , thats a bit much ….. theres a difference between letting your hounds loose on deer out of season and taking your dogs for a walk..
i would shoot as many coyotes as possible, they are screwing up all of the deer hunting
(3) The owner of a dog or any other person responsible for a dog shall not permit it to run at large,
(a) during the open season for a species of big game in an area prescribed for the purpose of subsection (2); or
(b) during the closed season for a species of big game in an area usually inhabited by that species. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (14).
Matt: take a look at 3(b) of the fish and game act. It clearly states that it is against the law to let your dog loose where big game inhabit. 40 acres of rural land is very much included in this. It’s not like deer know that the land isn’t crown owned and thus will avoid it.
Mike: that is exactly the crazy nonsense we need to eliminate. Don’t blame coyotes for your inability to hunt.
Here’s an interesting article on the teacher who was stalked and killed by two wolves last year in Alaska. Biologists have just confirmed it to be death by ‘aggression’ and nothing more, the wolves were not acting in defense nor did the woman have any food on her:
http://www.thenewstribune.com//2011/12/06/1934931/dna-samples-confirm-wolves-killed.html?storylink=fb
Outdoorsguy
Not to belittle the death Jeff, but while she wasn’t CARRYING food, she WAS food.
Something we all need to remember when we are in the boons
No Rob, that’s it exactly…investigators have chalked it up to a predatory attack, much like many of the bear attacks that occur each year across NA…and of course, this poor girl was only 4′ 11″ and 115 pounds. She didnt stand much of a chance.
If I recall, that Toronto girl killed in Cape Breton by coyotes a couple of years back was also deemed a predatory attack.
Yes folks…coyotes HAVE killed people before too!
Outdoorsguy
Incidentally, the Toronto singer was killed by coyotes in Cape Breton Highlands in Oct of 2009. That same month, a 16-year from Osgoode(South of Ottawa) was also attacked by a coyote.
Less than one year later, another teen was attacked by a coyote in Cape Breton. She was camping when the coyote jumped on her..biting her repeatedly in the head. That incident was Aug, 2010
Outdoorsguy
h
1993. A coyote bit a Fallbrook, California boy as he slept on the deck of his home. (SDUT 1/3/95, B1)
7/20/95. Fifteen-month-old Erica Galvin of Reno, Nev., suffered seven puncture wounds to her right thigh when a coyote sneaked up on her about 4 p.m. Thursday near the merry-go-round and tennis courts at Griffith Park in Los Angeles. The coyote was scared away by her mother. (SDUT 7/24/95, A3)
6/13/96. A 3-year-old Palo Alto boy was attacked by a 2-year-old male coyote at the Windy Hills Open Space Preserve in Portola Valley, near Los Altos, CA. As the family was packing up the car after a picnic, the coyote used his teeth to grab the boy by the hand and drag him toward nearby bushes. The boy was playing with a Frisbee which was also bit by the coyote. The boy’s 15-year-old brother scared away the coyote. The coyote was later trapped, and DNA testing (from the Frisbee) was attempted to make the id certain.
This was the first attack in the 25 year history of this Preserve. (Los Altos Town Crier 7/24/96)
10/96? (< 4/11/97). A 40-year-old woman jogger in Benkelman, Nebraska, was bitten on the leg when a coyote attacked her as she jogged around an athletic track. (Animal Damage Control Program of the USDA)
2/17/97. Lauren Bridges, a 40 pound, 4-year-old girl, was attacked by a 40 pound female coyote when she left her vacation rental on Saddle Road in South Lake Tahoe, CA. The coyote knocked her to the ground and began biting her face, the only part not covered by ski clothes. Her father heard her screams and pulled the coyote off his daughter as it continued ripping at her face with its teeth. Lauren required 22 stitches for 16 wounds to the girl's face, neck and scalp, out of a total of over 30 puncture wounds. One of the puncture wounds came within a centimeter of her jugular vein. The father was not bitten, and the coyote was killed moments later by a police officer. (Tahoe World region 2/24/97, 2/19/97 and 3/5/97)
In the previous month at South Lake Tahoe, Supervisor John Upton reported that a man was bitten by a coyote, other skiers were chased by coyotes, and children walking to school were followed by coyotes. Apparently, people had been feeding coyotes in the area, accustoming the coyotes to people. (Placerville Mountain Democrat 2/24/97)
4/97. Coyotes attacked and bit two Scottsdale, Arizona children in separate attacks within a week. Neither child was seriously hurt. (SDUT 12/17/97, A3)
12/10-11/97. On 12/10/97, a coyote attacked a 2-year-old boy in Tucson's Wildlife Ridge Park, but did not break his skin. The next day, in the same park, a 4-year-old boy was bitten and scratched and a 22-month-old toddler was bitten around her right eye and required seven stitches for the deep puncture wounds. (SDUT 12/17/97, A3)
7/29/98. There has been only one coyote attack on a human reported in Massachusetts in the past 50 years, on 3-year-old Daniel Neal of Sandwich while he was playing on his swing set. His mother forced the female…
Seems you’ve opened the floodgates Mr Researcher..my research has discovered that 21 people world-wide have been killed by wolves(not coyotes) since 2003!!
Outdoorsguy
From what I’ve found, it seems there are two fatal coyote maulings in recorded history.
Outdoorsguy
these were just some …. that i found… more good reading here
http://urbancoyoteresearch.com/WhiteandGehrt_CoyoteAttacks.pdf
I would love to challenge anyone who denies me the privilege of walking my dogs off leash within my own property. If I had hunting dogs that are conditioned to chasing deer to the ground then I would be inclined to respect that “law”. In fact, I would administer it myself.
I have the upmost respect for any deer, coyote or any other animal. They can come and go as they please, and I’m glad that they have a small haven to retreat to, especially during hunting season.
I suspect that this law was intended for hunting dogs, and I’m sure that you guys know of some irresponsible people who haven’t trained their dogs adequately enough to have 100% control over them. I wouldn’t want them running free either.
My neighbor, a farmer, owns a border collie. I’ve seen the dog running in his fields with his cows on his farm. His kids often walk through their woods with their dog, off leash, infact I’ve never seen one on him. Its the same woods that I share, only separated by our legal property boundaries, and a fence.
My dogs and his dog are well behaved, and respond to commands.
I would think that a working dog like the border collie would have a difficult time herding on leash.
H.M., I think that your idea to wipe out the coyotes would be the most logical thing to do – easy, fast, and you can wipe your hands clean of the problem. This way, we don’t have to use our intellect to find a solution to the problem.
Then we can move on to the next problem species…
Jeff,
I hope you watched the latest Swamp People. These educational shows are so enlightening. I just caught the end, too bad.
Why is it that these guys can never visit a dentist?
Seriously, why are they on t.v.? Wasn’t there a horror movie called Swamp people?
Theres another one about hunting hogs now too.
You guys should start a show, maybe call it, ” Bucks and Boys”, or ” Moose Men”. 🙂
Jeff, couldn’t resist:
Schooot ’em! Schooot ’em now!!! 🙂
Carol K,
If it meant we get to hunt for a living and fun, then i’m all over a show like that. 🙂 I’m in!
As for using our intellect, sometimes the human race screws themselves over b/c we end up thinking too much!
Sometimes you just have to do the basics and control the population.
Look at Pennsylvania for example. Years ago, their deer population was so huge that it was hurting the population. Not enough feed for all the deer, disease set in resulting in smaller animals and an overall weaker population.
They had an all out hunt on them for a few years, thinned the population right out then set up strict regulations.
Now the deer population is very healthy and the animals are getting bigger too.
Nobody wants to full eradicate the coyotes, but their numbers are growing. Something needs to be done and the most cost effective measure is to hunt them.
If the MNR doesn’t have a tag limit on coyotes yet their license details for other species are incredibly specific (and in the case of moose, downright ridiculous – another rant for another time), it says to me that they know there’s an issue.
If there wasn’t a population issue, they wouldn’t let us touch any ‘yote without a tag.
As it stands, all one needs is a small games license then it’s game on.
Cheers,
Keebler
i just noticed you posted the pics of the young deer being taken.
I’d like to know what the antis think of that series of photos b/c i’ve heard so many say, “leave the animals alone b/c the coyotes and wolves only go after the weak or old”
Ya, BS to that one.
Carol,
It seems interesting that you are ok with braking the law, but expect others to respect it? Seems a bit of a double standard doesn’t it?
Thanks for the info on the the kill tactics of coyotes and wolves, very interesting.
Carol, I would agree that my dogs would walk off leash on my property (I think I would do the same), but even a trained dog can be unpredictable when he spots an animal, especialy one that he perceives as a threat to him or you. They can also provoke an attack by surprising animals. I would be concerned for my dogs more than anything else. I don’t know if you carry a rifle with you, but I certainly would.
Here’s an interesting video on a deer attacking a dog. This happens on a residential street. It demonstrates a devestating attack on a dog that was otherwise minding his own business. It also shows how hard and fast deer can attack from the front. Especially the forward drop kick with the hind legs at 1:04!
Under Section 25 (3) (a)(b) of the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act it states:
Dog running at large
(3) The owner of a dog or any other person responsible for a dog shall not permit it to run at large,
(a) during the open season for a species of big game in an area prescribed for the purpose of subsection (2); or
(b) during the closed season for a species of big game in an area usually inhabited by that species. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 22, s. 2 (14).
There is not a definition in the FWCA for “running at large”. Town/City bylaws have the definition as most restrict dogs being off leash.
The City of London Ontario’s bylaws defines “at large” as:
Running at large – defined
“running at large” shall mean to be found in any place other than the premises of the owner of the dog and not under the physical control of any person by means of a leash held by the said person.
Seems pretty clear to me, Chessy. Thank you, London, On.
Pretty impressive video, GPG. Fantastic example of maternal protection! I think that my dogs would have run like h#ll, if they were in that poor dog’s place. I used to have a donkey that would chase my dogs if he got the chance. They learned quickly enough to avoid him, and he was definitely capable of injuring them badly.
I thought that the footage of the cat and the fawn was almost comical. The cat looked like he was wondering how he was going to eat this thing.
You’re right, I suppose that there’s always a chance of a confrontation, but I’m pretty careful with my dogs, and they’re always close to me.
No, I don’t carry a gun, but I do carry a big stick!
Carol:
Intellect is the best way of resolving the coyote problem, as opposed to emotional responses.
I would certainly not advocate wiping out the population. My intellect tells me that we are not in danger of doing so; otherwise the Ministry would have imposed strict limits on the number that could be taken with a small game license.
My intellect also tells me that this dangerous predator must be controlled for the safety and security of certain communities where coyotes have lost their fear of humans. Since reasoning with them probably won’t work, more aggressive measures must be taken.
Huntingmom
@ Keebler,
The deer population in Pennsylvania probably became so large in the past because most of their natural predators, i.e. wolves, were eliminated. The only way to control them now is by hunting. It reminds me of Anticosti Island, which has one of the densest populations of whitetails to be found anywhere. The deer don’t have any non-human predators there. There used to be black bears on the island but they disappeared. Ironically, the demise of the bears may have been caused by the excessive browsing of the non-native deer on the berry bushes they needed for food.
I think given the choice, coyotes and wolves will go after the old and the sick before tangling with a healthy animal.
Nice attempt, H.M.
Your “intellectual” response indicates to me that it is in fact based on your emotional, hysteria which is typical of the Ottawa area.
Now, here is the voice of reason, based on an intellectually sound mind. Unfortunately, we are unequipped with qualified people who know how to respond to “problem wildlife” around here. Perhaps we should correspond with wildlife control in Banff, or somewhere similar where they actually know what they’re doing. Remember how people panicked over a couple of young moose this summer? Talk about paranoia. The poor moose were terrified, and the suburbians were convinced that they were the ones in danger. They could not even estimate properly the dosage of sedation, so of course they had to be shot. What a fiasco.
If these” dangerous ” coyotes continue to haunt our surroundings, we have to get rid of what entices them, like those decomposing food filled green bins, for one. If they are so bold that they are within shooting distance, then dart them and remove them elsewhere.As far as I’ve heard so far, there have been no indications of packs of coyotes running through our streets. An occasional one around our garbage can be managed.
Educate people, don’t panic them. The big bad wolf syndrome is alive and well in Ottawa.
@rob st-denis so what you are telling me it is illegal to take my lab duck hunting ?? or flushing birds then?? this is your interpretation of the rules… doesnt make sense .having my lab on a leash while duck hunting or bird hunting kinda defeats the purpose no?
Carol I have somewhat enjoyed your posts but this last one shows you are like the rest of the “TV” educated masses.
The only knowledge you have about “darting” animals comes from watching the nature channels where they only show the successful controled events. Real life is far different.
Coyotes do not stand still to be darted.
Chemical immobilization takes time. The animal has to be in a controled environment so it does not dash off into traffic or dissapear into the suroundings.
Trained people with knowledge of what possible stress the animal may suffer and how to handle this stress need to be present. Would you know the symptons of potentially fatal reaction to this “darting” and how to cope with it witth a sedated animal? These trained people are not always available.
The drugs we have available to use are quite low potency thus requiring precise knowledge of dosages requiring a thorough knowledge of an animals mass, its state of relative hyper tension and its physcology. Some animals are more hyper than others.
“Darting” or more properly termed “chemical immobilization” is a very difficult and dangerous method to use on wild animals.
@ Carol k it is against the law to transport wild animals more than 1 or 2 km away from where they were trapped and like i have said . there are a number of studies that say that green bins don’t attract coyotes
matt if you read the fwca, a dog when aiding hunting is considered under control and not at large (and for big game and coons must be licenced for that purpose). Geneerally speaking they need calls or radio collars to suit that requirement, the same can NOT be said of a dog running off without a leash as the owner takes a leisurely walk through the bush.
Chemical immobilization is more difficult when we don’t have the right authorities to administer the sedation. That’s my point. We need to get more qualified people involved.
My husband and I have worked with horses, and he has sedated them many times. We have to estimate a weight. it can be done, with experience, and it works. So has our vet, of course.
If coyotes are so bold to stand still, as many claim they are, without fear of humans, they should be able to be hit. They could be cornered into large enclosures where they would not be endangered (cars, etc) this is where the experts come into play. It cant be a bunch of yahoos who do guess work. It has to be thought out carefully.They would have reversal drugs to revive them if needed. They’re used all the time with dogs.
If they are too skittish of people, obviously scared of humans, then they aren’t dangerous to us, and will run away from us and not attack us, contrary to popular belief. Therefore they aren’t a problem after all. They are a “coyote sighting”,and thats all. Just keep your cats in for Gods sake.
Look,I think that we have to be open to different solutions.
By the way, Merry Christmas every one!
Carol I agree with you 100 % on your views re the Ottawa Moose incident. As for your coyote solutions with all due respect I think you’re out to lunch. I’ll stop there as I have to pack….heading to the trap line and hopefully have a few Coyotes/Wolves waiting for me effectively restrained in a strategically placed cable restraint device……
Carol you make two good points but do not understand the realities involved with “WILD” animals.
First point “We need to get more qualified people involved” We absolutely do.
At present there is NO ONE certified in the greater Ottawa area to administer Chemical immobilization to “WILD” animals. There were two techs at MNR who were qualified. They were both contract workers and neither has had their contract renewed.
Due to Health Canada Regulations and the requirements of the governing body that administers the training to get certified for Chemical immobilization it is virtually impossible for the lay person to get the certification. I took the course I know!
Veterinarians will not get involved in “WILD” animal scenarios.
Second “My husband and I have worked with horses, and he has sedated them many times. We have to estimate a weight. it can be done, with experience, and it works. So has our vet, of course.”
This is a very controlled scenario where the animal is under complete control. Its history and physical condition are known. Its temperament is known. Unexpected complications can be dealt with.
You can not control or completely anticipate any of these things with a “WILD” animal.
We are working on solutions but they are neither easy nor timely.
As for the moose incident you refer to it was indeed a poor solution but the best available under the circumstances presented at that time.
Well said rick, as usual
@rob ive seen the rules , but i guess my point is rob if i buy a chunk of land out in the country and i want to walk my dog off its leash im gonna do that! i get the fact that we dont need domestic animals running rampant chasing deer or other animals out of season but there comes a point where its my property and taking my dog for a walk on MY land is my business , and would seem rather ridiculous to have the mnr show up and charge me for walking my dog …. which i might add is highly unlikely seeing as though they dont bother to lay charges against hardcore poachers ……
matt, there is lots of things you can’t do on YOUR land without permission. We are after all, not on an island.
i would think folks who get caught every year with a grow op in their corn field believe they can do what they want too. Rules is rules, they don’t stop because of some arbitrary line on a county map.
I agree with you 100% , Matt. well said.
Rick, again, we have to hire some wildlife experts who are qualified, to come to the Ottawa area, since they are obviously not available now.
Of course we are not the only city with this predicament. There has to be sensible, reasonable solutions. We just have to find the right people who know exactly what they’re doing from previous experience.
I realize that wild animals are much different from domestic ones. I wasn’t born under a rock. I do know that sedation is very useful when a horse, dog, or cat is in pain, or stressed out, in fact it’s often necessary. But that’s beside the point.
I think this topic has been run to the ground. I’m tired of repeating myself.
Anyway, as i said before, everyone have a wonderful holiday with their families, and even though it’s not politically correct, MERRY CHRISTMAS !!!
( I hope you don’t all get orange sweaters for Christmas! You don’t want to all look the same at the Christmas party!) well, maybe you do….. 🙂
Carol K…following the moose incidents around town last year, the City of Ottawa hired a highly trained Wildlife Team to deal with urban wildlife issues involving deer & moose.
They were provided with top level training (in NW Ontario) in the use of Chemical Immobilization.
Outdoorsguy
Matt, You can rest assured that you’re not going to get charged if you’re walking your dog on your own property on or off leash. On the other hand if you let it chase deer that’s a completely different set of rules, also should your dog take off out on the road and get hit by a car then you my friend are at fault, and god forbid should your dog stick it’s head in a legally set conibear trap then once again you are at fault. Bottom line is…….keep your dog on a leash or be willing to accept the consequences and please don’t whine if it happens.
Trapper if my dog stuck its head in a conibear trap on MY land it wouldn’t quite be legal now would it? seeing as though nobody but myself is permitted on my land , and I agree I don’t like dogs chasing deer out of season either but what rob is saying doesn’t make sense .. Like I said before there’s no rule that says my dog needs to be leashed or radio collared when I take her duck hunting or flushing birds. And @rob there’s a wee bit of a difference between walking my dog and starting a grow op ,let’s use some common sense here , telling someone they can’t walk their dogs on their own land is ridiculous !!!!… Believe me I’ve had problems with people running hounds on My land out of season with the excuse that they were “exercising them ” and I don’t like it either .. That being said there are many many hunters in my area who hunt coyotes with the use of dogs and this just happens to be smack dab in the middle of a winter deer herding area is this illegal then ??
You can walk your dog as much as you like, but keeping it off leash in big game territory, regardless of who owns the land is illegal, plain and simple. And while you may not have any traps on your land, your neighbour may, and there is no law saying he can’t plant them at the property line.
Jeff you are correct in that a team of local animal control personnel took a course in Chemical Immobilization but due to red tape. BS, protecting ones a$$, jurisdiction problems and territorial infighting (not the team members) none of them were certified.
Major impediments to getting a cohesive local strategy to handle wildlife issues are the cost, who pays for it plus the coordination of three levels of government, city, province and federal.
You’re frigging kidding me? Am I the only one who doesn’t know this?
So, here we are a year later and still no better off with regards to wildlife occurrences within City of Ottawa??
One would think with so many levels of government involved that MORE would get done, but it appears that things work in reverse. I know when speaking with the MNR about the situation awhile back, they told me their hands were tied basically..when it came to incidents within City limits.
Oh boy……….
Outdoorsguy
Jeff while progress has been painfully slow there has been progress. The City has been doing the best it can unfortunately the Province and Federal Governments have been impediments.
@rob I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the whole walking my dog off its leash thing.. But you didn’t answer my question .is it then illegal to use hounds for coyote hunting ?? Maybe someone else can answer that one .. I know lots of people who do this through the winter months.seems to be an effective way of bagging lots of coyotes.
I’m in agreement with Carol K and Trapper about keeping domestic cats indoors. They can decimate bird populations – songbirds and game birds. In the state of Wisconsin alone, farm cats are estimated to kill between 7 and 100 million birds annually, and in Great Britain, cats kill roughly 50 million birds each year. In Victoria, Australia, there is a nightly curfew on cats because they were driving some native birds and small animals to the verge of extinction. Coyotes may be problematic in some respects, but they’re providing a service if they’re preying upon cats that are allowed outdoors.
Matt, No it’s not illegal to use hounds to hunt coyotes. And I would strongly suggest that you read my previous post again and do not add anything…
Trapper , maybe my point is being missed a little bit here … do you not find it slightly hypocritical to call someone out for walking their dogs on their own property when it is perfectly legit to hang dead animal carcasses from trees or let loose as many hounds as you like and chase out a piece of bush that could be filled with deer , elk , moose , etc…. etc…do you really think that just because the hounds are only trained for coyotes that it means they wont scare big game ? by no means am i against this but i just find the hypocracy a little bit much even being a Die-hard hunter myself ..
as far as your suggestion goes to not add anything …. last i checked jeff was the moderator on here. some people have different opinions. Some people don t like those opinions some do… thats what makes a jeff’s blog get hundreds more hits than any other in the city .. 😉
I do have some cool pics of a kill that i found and set my trail cam up on . check out the tail on one of the coyotes .
http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k542/mattmoffitt46/
Matt, those are excellent photos btw!
That coyote in the foreground…besides missing a good chunk of his tail, is one big bugger indeed.
If you dont mind me asking, were those images taken in this region??
Outdoorsguy
ya jeff , they are from north gower. there’ s definitely some big lads around.I may spend some $$$ on a good predator call this winter , have you or anyone had any luck with these electronic calls ??
Matt, I know they use predator calls out on the prairies a lot..not sure how well they work around here. I would think that baiting, or hunting over a recent kill, might be better options.
One thing I have noticed is these animals are certainly a lot more active from midnight to first light…I have have very few pics of coyotes taken in the evenings.
Anyone every used predator calls with success?
Outdoorsguy
Jeff, a couple of guys use them here and they tell me they work. One of those guys is using one of the tail wagger thingamajigs with a call, and he says that really works! I suspect that you can’t use them every day in the same bush because eventually they will get wise to it. I have heard of other guys saving meat and table scraps all year and freezing them in a 5 gallon pail of water with a rope sticking out of it. They hang this and the coyotes keep coming to it cause they don’t get much at a time as long as it’s frozen. This is all hearsay to me. All I know is that the bush is full of them but you rarely see them becasue they are smart.
here’s a really cool link from youtube i found language is a bit sketchy but some pretty cool footage ..
I have used predator calls with a lot of success. On the right day, coyotes and fox will come right in on a dead run trying to find the easy meal. I’ve also used bait and shot them over that. Stillborn calves are easy to come by, and easy to get out to the bait site. Both ways have worked well for me.
Just to keep the fires burning, I’ve seen two coyotes in the last 5 days. One was on Hunt Club between Woodroffe and Greenbank. It was sitting on the side of the hill watching morning rush hour traffic go by. The other one I saw just yesterday at the 416 and Hunt Club.
Sureshot-dave, thats really neat…I didnt realize they worked so well. Chessy, are you can coyotes, moose and turkey with the same call??
Outdoorsguy
WOW..this post is up to 172 comments..think that must be some sort of record..hehe.
Normally I’d having something new up there but this topic is still going strong.
Outdoorsguy
fox pro scorpion is awsome … for yotes deer moose even fooling around with turkeys
Let’s move on Matt………;)
@ trapper agreed .
Got some interesting news speaking to my wife who works for a local insurance company.she works in the farm dept. And apparently the claims are just rolling in for cows that are killed by coyotes,what’s interesting as well is that apparently some townships and municipalities are held resposible for the claims… More details to follow..
That’s very interesting Matt, please do keep us posted. Thanks for working things out with Trapper..it is almost Christmas afterall..and I know you guys are both on the same side of the fence anyway.
Outdoorsguy
Okay so Elizabethtown kitley , paid out $1000 for a cow that was killed by a coyote.I am told the way it works is that the farmer has to put a claim in to the township first and if they don’t pay then insurance does. if they have appropriate coverage.
Yes, $1000 paid out to the Farmer by Insurance for loss of 1 cow, and with his $1000 deductible for the claim..he’s still down $1000…hehe, sorry Matt I’m in middle of renewing my home and auto insurance and feeling rather bitter at the moment.
Outdoorsguy
jeff i can call crows deer yote moose deer. Turkeys w call to but it is just for fun. Not leagle for turkey do a google search for fox pro. Expensive but good.
Speaking of cows killed by coyotes, an old landlord of mine in rural Nepean lost a bunch of year old dairy cows when they were chased out of the yard by coyotes and onto the railway tracks that went through his property. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out who wins when it comes to a bunch of cows on the tracks vs. train…
It’s a sad state of affairs when farmers rely on dead stock for income rather than live stock……Smells fishy to me.
i”ve got a external reed howler that seems to work good the one time that i used it last year. brought four coyotes in with it last new years eve. it takes some practice but its not that difficult to get the hang of it. i plan on bringing it up to our cabin next week as we are spending the week there. was going to finnish the year off bow hunting but it seems the deer have moved off our property, very little tracks around the last couple of weekends we were up and no pics on game cam. ( some snow on ground last two weekends) but tons of yote tracks!!!
Mcdan, it would break my heart to discover that.
Here’s a link to my outdoors column today, in case you couldnt find it:
http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/12/21/hunters-keep-honest-aim-for-most-part
Outdoorsguy
Hello Jeff
I have an electronic call that is wireless out to 150 yds.It works excellent.The very first time i tried it i had a coyote come racing in so fast that when i moved to pick up my gun he spotted me at about 75yds and turned inside out to get the hell out of there.Also when i used the crow call with it the crows come out of nowhere to the source. This year i will be using it in conjunction with 10 deer carcasses i got from the butcher to see if i can distract them long enough to knock a few down.
Paul, good to hear from you btw…I looked up some of those electronic calls and I like what I’m hearing.
Outdorosguy
Ya I definitely like the idea of using the electronic calls , I’m not keen on the idea of feeding coyotes.. Especially for those of us that have limited time for hunting , I might have to add one more idea to my christmas wish list 🙂
Merry Christmas guys, eat lots of venison over the holidays and stay healthy
Thanks Jeff for a great blog and column
See ya’all in the New Year
matt, just save meat scraps in the freezer till you have a chance to dispose of them. They won’t rot if they are frozen, We do a bucket full every few weeks and keeps them going where I want them (away from the house and livestock).
It’s also a great way to get them going where not only will they feel comfortable and where you will get a clear shot.
one more thing, today in the National Post and that other Ottawa paper there is an article about food banks not accepting moose and deer. It’s a shame really, maybe Jeff you could do something on this.
Just sayin
tks Iggs, Im all over it…started a Post on that yesterday and will be putting it up sometime this am!
Thanks for everything this year btw…and to everyone else too. I think we’ve got a pretty darn strong following here!
Outdoorsguy
Here is this latest post for those wanting a break from Wile E Coyote:
http://blogs.canoe.ca/outdoorsguy/hunting/animal-rights/food-banks-canada-say-no-to-ontario-game-meat/
Outdoorsguy
Hi Jeff,
Just wondering if we’re supposed to report any coyote sightings – we live between Britannia + Andrew Hayden park.
Just curious. Thanks!
Hi Carol A:
Yes, I would appreciate hearing more about it…just rec’d another email about a coyote sighting in Britannia area.
Seems there must be a few of them hanging around Andrew Hayden Park. Did you see one in that area? Was it during the day??
Thanks for dropping-by.
Outdoorsguy
Well, here we go again:
http://blogs.canoe.ca/outdoorsguy/hunting/animal-rights/ottawa-coyotes-more-popular-than-ever/
Outdoorsguy
Yes there is a pack of three coyotes in Britannia. Specifically Mud Lake and Ambleside Park. They come out in the evening from Mud Lake and leave in the morning – one I know was still there in the bushes at the entrance of McEwen this morning at 7:19 a.m.. They have little fear. People will not stop feeding them. One is very large.
I was searching information on coyotes and came across this article. I thought I would add to the very real concerns I have with Coyotes in my area. I live in Westcliffe estates Bells Corners. We back on to the NCC. I have lost two very dear cats recently, and I assumed it was a fisher. One of the cats has gone outside for 9 years, and stays pretty much on my deck or yard. I have heard of others losing cats recently here too. Now I I have not seen a cat around in weeks, even squirrels seem less. Then last night my son and his friend were stalked and followed down our street by three coyotes. This is very scarey. I called the police and the City but no one will do anything unless you call when you see the animals. I am not letting my kids our again at night here now.
HI all,
Not sure if anyone is still following this blog – Still same location and had not seen a coyote since Feb/Mar until last week. Sunday night I found a small coyote – and last week the same was spotted. We think it is a baby. It does watch the dogs but does not go near humans. Yes last year it was something and the three coyotes were not afraid of people. However, the word is that the female with mange is deceased. I heard she went last March.
The male was quite large and healthy so explains the offspring. We’ll see how it goes this year. Its speculated their den is within mud lake.
Hi all,
Still only the 1 small (baby?) coyote seen so far this year and most recent Saturday a.m. and last night (9:50 pm). Seen late evenings and early mornings same location (Britannia) as notated previously. The big male and his pack female have yet to be seen.
Hi Cate, I’m so sorry I haven’t commented earlier..been tied up with more recent Blog posts.
It is interesting how you’ve been following the development of these ‘urban yotes. Evidently they are able to live and function quite nicely in this micro eco-system known as Britannia.
So, from what you have seen there is definite wolf-like, or pack-like behaviour? It’s so strange to see from an animal that was once very solitary.
Great to keep us updated Cate, thanks for the info..
Outdoorsguy
Hi Outdoorsguy,
Sorry I’m revewing my favorites and missed replying to this.
I’m a student now so I hit the books.
It has been a crazy fall and winter for the animals. We had a red fox that is not shy and bothered quite a few dog walkers but he came out between 4-5pm so I always missed him. The “chubby cub” coyote as I nicknamed him came out in the early fall between 5-7am and in the evening. He came over from mudd lake with the beautiful and large male coyote . Don’t know what happened to the female. Never saw her last fall/winter & this spring. Friendly reminder the female with the mange passed/or was trapped 2012 March.
The funny thing is they behave pack. However, once they come over – the chubby cub ran high ground – high McEwen to Ambleside and then down the Ambleside condo park into the New Orchard park and hit the squirrels and small animals. Whereas the large coyote travelled same route low McEwen to New Orchard and back. So they hunted separately. I know this because I walked high McEwen way behind chubby with my dog. Chubby still doesn’t go after dogs.
Here’s the funny ecological part. The large coyote hunts animals. Chubby had adapted. He comes across and hits the pizza store’s garbage and the other garbage building bins. So chubby goes after human scraps. And he is chubby!
I think they left in February to go across the river for females and came back just as the ice was breaking up. I saw him and the father running through McEwen parkway to Mudd lake and they didn’t bother with us. Looked and heard like they were being followed far off large animal- maybe the bears coming across Alexandria bridge like they do. We ran off.
Have not seen them since the Bears episode in Britannia. Haven’t seen the fox.
If there is offspring I should see by late August. I was out finishing an assignment @ 2am with my dog and heard a humph so loud from the parkway and branches/twigs crashing when I thought it was safe just a week before the sighting of the bear in Britannia. Been following the rules since then off the parkway just in case in the pm.
Well, chat in the fall. That’s the wrap up for 2012-2013 Fall/winter/Spring. Overall less impact than last year.
Hi all,
Ok – well looks like I’m the only one posting for now – Coyotes are back. NCC cut the grass in the park this week so its easier to see their eyes in the dark.
I’m thinking one has mange due to the similar shedding samples I’ve seen lately that reminds of the last one.
Possibly the big male and I’m hoping not the chubby cub that is probably big now. I think their numbers are dwindling though – the bunny pop is returning. Cheers all. FYI The big male is the son of the big female that had the last run of mange and was rumoured to be put down.