The Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources (OMNR) 11th hour decision to ban, among other things, the use natural hunting attractants will come as a shock to many local hunters.
I am one of the few hunters, however, not at all surprised by this decision; in fact, I predicted it happening in a column I wrote for the Ottawa SUN back in May 10, 2007, after the Province of Nova Scotia announced an outright ban on the use of hunting scents that contained bodily fluid.
I just knew Ontario would be close behind…
At the time, it meant that all doe-in estrus and dominant buck lures we know and love were illegal for use in that province. The Nova Scotia Natural Resources department justified the ban by saying “they don’t have CWD in their province and they don’t want it either.” While there was no arguing that point there was also, to my knowledge, little evidence to prove that CWD can be contracted through commercial deer scents.
Now 3 years later, the Ontario government, as predicted, has taken a similar stance, however CWD, as far as I know, has been diagnosed almost exclusively on commercial game farms in the west, and there is still no real evidence to indicate that hunting scents or attractants are the source of any disease.
My good friend who I’ve known for nearly 10 years, Terry Rohm of Tink’s Scents – makers of America’s top deer lure – certainly knows a thing or two about scents and lures. He was another person left scratching his head back in 2007 when the Nova Scotia ban was announced; with obvious concerned about sales of his product in Canada. Fortunately Terry and Tinks had already been busy developing a synthetic line of scents and lures, which they have marketed ever since.
He admits, though, that the stinky natural stuff is still preferred by hunters.
Terry was so concerned about the reasoning behind the Nova Scotia ban; he set up a meeting with Dr. Karl V Miller to discuss, among other things, Chronic Wasting Disease. (CWD) Dr. Miller explained to him that through testing, so far CWD has not been able to be transmitted by deer urine.
I am still waiting for someone to produce evidence to the contrary, in the meantime check out the MNR for more details on the hunting attractant ban and a few other goodies:
Outdoorsguy
Another feeble attempt to look like they are doing something constructive while doing the exact opposite, hurting the economy of many hunting related businesses.
The general public who know nothing about CWD look on this move by the MNR as being proactive in protecting Ontario’s deer and moose while in reality it is a complete waste of time and resources. It will do absolutely nothing to prevent a disease they admit they do not know positively how it is transmitted.
It is a law that is almost entirely unenforceable. The only people who will be charged are those uninformed individuals who will inadvertently incriminate themselves by honestly answering questioning by COs.
Just like the Long Gun Registry the wrong people will be targeted as criminals, but optically it looks good on paper to the general public.
I better get out and buy some right away, before it’s taken off the shelves.
Is it just for deer or moose too.
I dont give a rat’s fat ass about the economy or hunting related businesses over a 10 dollar bottle of scent, our deer herd is more important . How will we feel if they find out it is tansmitted by scent. any precaution that can be taken to possible stop the transmission of this is ok with me .. Before you even start with baiting if that has to be next then so be it . years ago our fathers killed deer with out bait and there were alot less of them back then so don’t even start that debate
Ok Chessy that’s fine, but what happens when, say, the ‘powers that be’ decide they want to ban something like non-resident Canadians hunting in the US, for example, because we may or may not carry some new deer tick that spreads a weird Canadian strain of Lyme Disease..which may or may not be harmful to the American population..but they’d want to stop it at the border..of course, there is no evidence to show it would ever happen.
Poor example, I know, but don’t you see it’s just one more way they can tighten the grip and control over our hunting heritage…by slowly eliminating our privileges.
Besides that, there is nothing to prove that banning deer scent will have any affect on CWD…so why get rid of it?
Outdoorsguy
Iggy, according to what Keebler read, it will only be illegal to use natural scents, but still legal for stores to sell it….I know…I know, you got me too.
Outdoorsguy
Exactly right Rick..why is it that when it comes to hunting, the good guys always finish last?
It’s like constantly being the target of a schoolyard bully!
Outdoorsguy
It used to be that hunting was a competition between man’s skill and beast’s self-preservation instincts, and I understand that, even if hunting doesn’t appeal to me. What kind of competition is it when men use attractants? Where’s the skill? It’s just slaughter.
Esp, just so know, ‘slaughter’ is actually something that occurs with cattle in commercial slaughter houses
Outdoorsguy
esp, how about when women wear perfume…..it’s just not fair
when men hunt, do they shower?
do they wash their clothes to remove scent?
do they wear camo?
do they dull their guns so they don’t shine?
It’s all part of outsmarting the game
so is using attractant
speaking of slaughter
if that’s what it is, then why did over 75% of all deer tags go unused last year?
and a higher % for moose
come on chessy
give me relavant evidence, then I’ll agree, until then, save me the “maybe” horror stories
next thing they’ll be telling you that by walking through the bush, your killing fauna
will you stop hunting then?
You’ve been paying too much attention to Bigr LOL
Sadly, this Ontario ban on scents is very similar to the Ontario ban on high fence or enclosed hunting a couple of years ago.
Sure, we didn’t all agree with the method or principle of ranch-style hunting, but did it need to be banned? Was it really to prevent the spread of CWD or more so because it was deemed ‘politically incorrect’?
You can friggin rest assured that if I ever became disabled and wasn’t able to walk the mountains any more..and I had the money…I would have no qualms about trying a high fence hunt…well, not in ON of course.
That cancellation, this scent cancellation – along with the spring bear hunt – I believe, moves us one step closer to having our hunting privileges removed altogether..
Outdoorsguy
Chessy I guess you must also support banning guns then? After all if we can save one life it is worth it right? What a load of crap saying any cost is worth the prevention of this disease.
Please tell me why a disease with about a .5% maximum transition rate is so onerous that entire populations of deer have been wiped out? Why draconian measures have to be taken to prevent it?
There has been one case in NY State in Syracuse a number of years ago and since then not one new subsequent incidence, so why the hysteria?
Colorado where CWD was discovered over 30 years ago has no special initiative to prevent its spread yet is still one of the prime destinations for hunters in North America with thriving game populations.
Why is so much effort and resources being expended by our and other MNRs for a disease with so little dire consequences?
Hey Chess, feeling persecuted?
Outdoorsguy
Also (you guys got me going now) please can anyone provide me with any studies that show a measurable deleterious effect on wild game populations by CWD anywhere. We know the reactions of many wildlife game agencies have had devastating negative results for game animals but the disease itself has not proven to have anywhere near the predicted destructive results.
Can anyone say Y2K? Everyone knows the results of that “sky is falling” hysteria, a lot of wasted time and money for nothing!
Now to burn of some of this exasperation I am going to go spend the afternoon hanging some tree stands. Later!
have fun Rick, I got to sit in my tree stand last weekend watching 5 bears. And they were sharing their food
JEFF no my feelings can never be hurt . i have been out dealing with my beagle that got hit on the road…
can you show me studies that show that it can not be transmitted by sents untill then i have to agree with the outcome . BUT there should be a studie (Heck the ofah has tons of our money get them to do one just not shoot there mouth off ) if there is a study that shows it does not then i will be the first one to lead the parade to queens park . i feel that the deer herd is more important that some companies making money . Canada is a very small market for these companies and it will be like a bump in the road . .
RICK i think all guns should be banned … as long as the stock pile them at my house
i will look for some cwd studies at school
Well i done some looking i have a study from cornell . its got lots of good information . it says to ban all urine from contamanated areas.. So i was wrong . If the companies are willing to get a certification just like organic food . then let them sell it .
Jeff i have the study saved on computer if you want it for some light reading (it has pictures ) i can send it
right on Chessy, please send it by pm..I’d love to do a little light reading!
For those who didnt catch my bear update on the ‘Grow Op Bears’ Post:
“Speaking of bears, Mrs Outdoorsguy called me at 1:30 to say she just about ran into a bear on the 417 around the March Road exit. Evidently, it was a good-sized adult black bear and somehow made it across the hwy without getting nailed by a car!
This is Jeff Morrison reporting from the Ottawa valley..where one wayward bear was last seen heading towards Ottawa…”
Outdoorsguy
it’s light reading, it has pictures
hahahahahahahahahah
I think Jeff will like it then
yes iggy it is more of a report on cwd done by cornell … it has some intresting facts about even processing your deer as not to contain limphnodes of the deer so humans dont contract the diesease
I run a business and I do not have to lock up my ammo(yet) but I do. But I have been told as of jan 1 .11. I have to lock up my scented raid bug spray, not the regular but the scented.
what irritates me about this move is the 11th hour timing of it – most hunters have bought their stuff and will be heading out soon. Not sure how many of them know about it. It makes me wonder what took the MNR so long to make this decision.
Also, it’s a larger issues for carrying hides and antlers BACK into Ontario – how many folks travel outside the province to hunt (ie. especially around here with Quebec right across the water)?
I’m sure it won’t be heavily enforced, but I would really hate to be the guy who shot the largest scoring bull he’s ever shot in Quebec and get stopped by COs and losing the rack….
Jeff, funny about the bear – you should have called into the radio stations and caused panic 🙂
First off Chessy sorry to hear about your dog I hope it makes a complete recovery.
Second your statement “can you show me studies that show that it can not be transmitted by sents untill then i have to agree with the outcome” has to be the stupidest most disingenuous or the most macabre attempt at humour I have heard in a long time.
Following your logic of proving a negative I propose the next law should be to ban people from urinating or defecating in wild places. There have been no studies done to show that this does not transmit CWD in wild animals. Just think of the potential revenue for the government. COs as well as other police forces could use video cameras and night vision technology to catch hikers, campers, nature lovers heck even people who stop by the side of the road to let their kids pee on long drives, not just hunters. The potential pool of criminals is endless. At the end of the year officers can point to their arrest and conviction records and get good ratings on their appraisals. All justified by the potential for public safety. After all there are no studies to prove it can’t be transmitted this way, right!
Come on Chessy confess you are just egging us on! If not the alternative is frightning!!!
WELL are you ready for this … the law will not be inforced this year . this is what i have been told by my local C.O. . Please check with your local mnr office to see if the same policy is in effect in your area as well. so any one with real scents send to chessy in care of jeff ..
Sorry Chess, meant to ask about the dog..is he ok?
Jeff
no .. he was killed instantly… that is the part of owning hunting dogs when you live in the country.. i will be looking for a replacement after this deer season .. to early to get a dog for this year
i am sort of egging you all on for discussion .. and there has been tons of studies done on cwd from preditor transmision to geological transmission . it is intresting reading but some of it is over my head
Tons of studies are part of the problem. It is easy to get grant money to study CWD despite the inconclusiveness of these studies or partly because of the inconclusiveness. To justify this grant money game departments have to make it look like they are doing something about CWD so we get these ridiculous laws.
now i’m confused. scents are banned but are still allowed to be sold, and this law will probably not be inforced this year……help
Jeff, if I’m not mistaken this legislation change will also force any hunter who hunts out side of Ontario to have their game meat processed before bringing it into Ontario. Processed apparently also means “de boning”. So all you Quebec hunters better find a good french speaking butcher.
If anyone has a copy of this legislation can you get me a copy or post a link (in the mean time I will go hunting for it) (ironically if we are not vigilant in voicing our opinion on these things then the only hunting we will be allowed will be from the comfort of our homes in front of a Keyboard).
Unfortunately, the time has come for every hunter to now consider themselves the “politically hunted” and like it or not we have to pay attention to these things.
In the trapping industry we use a variety of essence lures including skunk essence, beaver castor, muskrat glands etc. These are all available commercially and I make a lot of my own. I’m curious to learn how this legislation will affect this practice.
Here’s the link.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_980666_e.htm#BK4
(and no it didn’t take me 4 hours to find it. I went back to bed after the previous post)
1st the ofah slams the mnr about this scent issue .. but in this months ood mag the presedent of the ofah says ontario is a a ticking time bomb for cwd there must be money to be made on the ofah side in order for them to say this
OK, have people in Ontario gone mad?
Why do officials in these positions waste so much time(theirs & ours) trying to ease the publics’ mind when these resources could be much better served elsewhere?
For the scant few documented cases of CWD found in the wild, you’d think wildlife agencies would be more concerned about such things as, why our deer population density in eastern Ontario has dropped by over 50% in just two years???
Hey, if they want something to work on, there’s a good place to start…instead of focusing on a condition which has claimed 0.5% of the deer herd in a few small areas..why not focus more on winter deer yard management??
I mean, what happened to such glorious initiatives as the Emergency Deer Feeding project…which is still on ‘stand-by’ and hasn’t really been called into action in over 10 years. Besides that, as far as I know, it involves mostly work by volunteers…hello, it doesn’t even cost that much bloody money!! More deer die during the winter in 1 afternoon than CWD has ever claimed!
But NO, they would rather spend time and money blowing smoke up your arse about CWD and that ticking time bomb which is Ontario.
Yeah, it’s a ticking time bomb alright; just not because of Chronic Wasting Disease…its from lots and lots of hunters out there about to explode!
It makes me friggin sick to my stomach…and honestly, I hate to admit this, I’m glad now that I hunt on the other side of the river – a place where rights like ‘enclosed hunting’ and the use of natural scents are still permitted.
Outdoorsguy
Jeff did you read the peice in that mag …. one minute there slamming the mnr then the next they are saying they’re not doing enough ?????
Chessy, any chance you could cut and paste that for me..so I dont have to read that particular mag?
Outdoorsguy
i have the artical… i will send it to your email the part i am trying to track down on my end is that the pee thing will not be enforced to 2011 due to a unforseen problem …. at least that what the ofah artical says
Jeff said
“Why do officials in these positions waste so much time(theirs & ours) trying to ease the publics’ mind when these resources could be much better served elsewhere? ”
that’s easy, because they aren’t spending their own money
Ok, I have contacted my source at mnr office . The person who responded is not an mnr officer. Their understanding is that the mnr can only enforce hunting related issues, therefore you can use it for taking pictures or getting close to deer but you cannot use it to hunt over. This is the stupidest thing i have heard. So it only affects deer while hunting but not for pictures DUH, the person there informed me that some people told retailers they would not be able to posses it, that is a lie. The person i talked to is going to talk to the powers that be to get a exact ruling on it. DUMB AND DUMBER
After reading that OOD Editorial, I’m beginning to think OFAH were the major force behind the banning of enclosed hunts 3 years ago, and the banning of deer scents today. There’s no doubt the org. is pushing for the scent ban now, while still being in favour of the MNR allowing merchants time to deal with the ban. OFAH President Rob Hare stated flat-out that he supports the use of synthetics..which is fine, it is a personal choice after all. I don’t do enclosed hunts, but it doesn’t mean I’m against them.
The problem is, though, everyone knows(incl the manufacturers) that the natural scents work better than synthetics…and as Rick and others have already noted, there’s almost no evidence to show any dangers posed by deer which are commercially raised for their urine. Perhaps it is the ‘deer diaper’ collection method used in that industry that’s the problem..who knows
Outdoorsguy
Of course, then I dig up this OFAH letter and it makes me think differently. I dont know what to beleive.
“MNR bungles latest regulation to prevent CWD”
Changes do little to stop spread of deadly disease and retailers pay the price
O.F.A.H. MEDIA RELEASE–(Aug. 20, 2010) – Earlier this week, Minister of Natural Resources Linda Jeffrey signed an order banning the possession and use of natural products containing body parts or fluids from members of the deer family for the purposes of hunting in Ontario. The move, along with two other regulatory changes relating to the movement of animals and animal parts, was supposedly designed to prevent the introduction and spread of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in Ontario. Unfortunately, these half measures fall far short of what actions should have been taken, and not only fail to address the problem, they leave outdoors retailers on the cusp of hunting season with inventories of natural deer attractants that can be sold, but no longer be used by hunters, at least in Ontario.
CWD is a fatal degenerative brain disease that affects members of the deer family, including moose, elk and potentially caribou. The disease has established a significant foothold in Alberta and Saskatchewan and fifteen U.S. states, but has yet to be discovered in Ontario. The main source for the spread of the disease is game farms for deer and elk, the same source of the products now banned by the Ministry. Unfortunately, the new regulations do nothing to eliminate the primary source of the disease (game farms), do not prohibit the sale and use of the product for uses other than hunting, and have not taken into consideration the losses that will be suffered by retailers. Several ministries share responsibility for keeping CWD out of the province, including the MNR, Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs (OMAFRA), Ministry of Consumer Services (MCS) and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), but a concerted plan of action, even among provincial ministries, is sadly lacking.
“Two years ago, the O.F.A.H. told the MNR that if they intended to ban natural attractants, they needed to give retailers sufficient lead time to source out alternative products, and needed to ban the sale, not just the possession of these products if they were serious about preventing the potential introduction of CWD to Ontario. They didn’t listen, and as a result, retailers are left holding the bag. The new regulations are nothing more than a band aid that achieves little of real value in terms of eradicating the threat posed by the disease,” said Dr. Terry Quinney, Provincial Manager of Fish and Wildlife Services. “By allowing the continued sale of these products for uses other than hunting, they have not stopped the products from potentially introducing the disease into the wild, and have placed retailers in an awkward, and potentially legally tenuous position. In fact, our legal counsel tells us that by selling the product, retailers may leave themselves open to charges under Section 77 of the Provincial Offenses Act. Only by banning the sale and use of the product by all potential users, not just hunters, restricting the movement of animals and animal parts from outside the province, and banning deer and elk farms, the major source for the transmission of the disease, with compensation to the owners, would the government come close to achieving their stated goal. The MNR has failed Ontario’s wildlife.”
Dr. Quinney also noted the irony that the MNR has not banned the sale and use of these attractants by Ontario hunters in other jurisdictions. “It’s illogical that the MNR would ban the use of a product in Ontario, but not prevent the sale of the product to be used in other provinces. You have to question why the government, with its focus on ‘biodiversity,’ refuses to ban deer and elk farms, and is instead seemingly content to introduce regulations that target hunters and outdoors retailers, without addressing the major source of the disease itself.”
For further information: Greg Farrant
Manager, Government Affairs and Policy
[email protected]
705-748-6324 ext 236/
Don’t be fooled Jeff. OFAH’s primary goal using CWD as leverage is the elimination of game farms in Ontario. This letter is being used to smooth over the editorial by Mr. Hare.
Why the intense almost paranoiac attack on game farms is a mystery to me. I have no connections to any game farm operations and have no interest in hunting in any of them by why are they so heinous to OFAH?
You got me Rick…like you, I have no affiliation with game farms or enclosed hunting..yet still hold no ill will against them either..they are what I would describe as a ‘niche industry’, and truthfully aren’t any more cruel than your average Canadian slaughter house.
It is funny, though, you head across that river and the QC Gov’t has a different take on these things…I’m not saying all is rosy on the other side, but when it comes to conservation/fish & game management they are a bit more reasonable and down to earth you might say.
Outdoorsguy
seems the OFAH stops more hunting than they help
lets talk spring bears
i think its about time and these two letters confirm that the ofah speak for them selfs . they only care about keeping them selves in jobs High paying jobs. they talk to both sides of the WAR and sell to them both . these types of people are only hurting the furture of hunting no matter what they have done in the past things like this only sink hunting even lower
.Apparently the stuff will only be illegal to use or possess (not sure on the photographing -vs-hunting thing) It will still be available for sale at your local hunting supply store. I’ve heard it suggested that all one needs to do is pour the stuff in a plain unlabelled bottle and claim that it was extracted from a previous deer that was harvested and some glycerine to keep it from freezing.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/FW/2ColumnSubPage/STEL02_168766.html
here is a link that was sent to me by my mnr friend.
I’ve always believed that just because I don’t do it, doesn’t mean no one should do it, and all too often that’s exactly what your getting here. The Alex Cullen Mentality.
Just because I don’t hunt animals I don’t eat, does that mean no one should be allowed to hunt foxes, or wolves?
No, but a lot of hunters think that way. I don’t hunt game farms, but should that stop everyone. Life isn’t always about ME ME ME
I did hunt a Pheasant farm a few times and thoroughly enjoyed it, not sure if that would be considered a game farm
Tell me Jeff, is the moose attractant still available in Quebec
Iggy, there are lots of moose scents on the market which are sold in QC..which one are you referring to?
Outdoorsguy
natural ones, I went to Le Baron today and they didn’t have any, so while on my travels in PQ I thought I’d pick some up, after all it’s illegal to use it but not to have it. 😉
Iggy, you can usually find Buck Expert products in most QC shops..they offer several types of Moose urine and scents…produced right in La Belle Province!!
Outdoorsguy
trapper i just came from mnr office they do not hold any jurisdiction out side of the fish and wild life act… so if your useing it for pictures or other wildlife related issues other than hunting …. but this makes me wonder and i am not a lawyer but is this not discrimanating against hunters ??
ooppsss
i have a fact sheet that states
if you hunt in ontari natural attractants containing body parts of any member of the deer family may no longer be possessed or used for the purposes of hunting .
so is there a big shop in Hull/Gatineau?
Yes Iggy, you must know Dan of L’Archerot..his shop is in Gatineau on Maloney, if I recall…
Outdoorsguy
Great post, as a fellow blogger and hunter I’m also scratching my head on this issue.
I also interviewed MNR staff about this done deal on banning hunters from using natural deer products.
Too bad the manufactures and all Ontario hunting stores are left with all those bottles left to rot on their shelves.
Peter Wood , Ripple Outdoors Hunting and Fishing Podcast Show
Hey Peter, thanks for dropping by!
Obviously you’ve seen the same response from hunters as I have..if you don’t mind me asking, what was the MNR’s response when asked about the scent ban??
Outdoorsguy