Following a terrible accident involving a deer near Kemptville on Christmas day, the Canada Safety Council’s past President is speaking-out on the status of Eastern Ontario’s whitetail herd.
The freak accident which claimed the life of 31-year old Roy Khabbaz, was just that, a freak accident, but Emile Therien once head honcho of the Canada Safety Council feels it’s time to thin the herd through a cull.
Therien was quoted as saying;
“There’s a heck of a lot of deer out there and they’re not going to go away, and I think at some point governments are going to have to decide how big the herd is and how many do they want to cull”
An article on the subject appearing this weekend in a local publication pointed-out, among other things, deer collision statistics for Ontario as well as the “Speeding Costs You Deerly” awareness campaign – a program run by the City which I’ve not heard of until now.
Yes, we do have a solid number of deer in this Region, there’s no arguing that…
It will be interesting to see how this recent call for a ‘deer cull’ is perceived, with someone from the Canada Safety Council bringing it to light. Anytime a hunter or conservationist mentions that dreaded four-letter word (Cull) Antis are all over us, like Oprah on a baked ham! (sorry Oprah)
The truth of the matter is, the deer herd in Eastern Ontario is actually in rebuild mode; still down substantially in numbers from 5-6 years ago. You see, Central Canada delivered its own style ‘cull’ at the time in the form of two wicked winters in a row; wiping out as much as 1/3 of the deer in some areas. Fact is, we are a piece off the number of deer this region boasted some 8-10 years ago.
Please don’t get me wrong, the accident on Christmas day is a terrible loss of a young life and my heart goes out to family and friends. As does my heart for the victims of the awful accident along the 148 in 2011 where a large black bear claimed two lives.
But is now the time for an all-out deer cull in eastern Ontario?
My opinion is that sustained white-tailed deer harvest is required; based on sound population surveys where available, along with hunter harvest statistics to help control and manage the herd. (Hunter’s harvest statistics are not currently being heavily utilized in Ontario, as the MNR do not have the resources to do so.)
Managing deer in our region has always been a conundrum and it seems nothing has changed. We’ll see if the Canada Safety Council has any pull in that regard.
What do you think?
Outdoorsguy
If this winter keeps going the way it has, lots of deer will not make it to spring. I was out at my camp yesterday taking down stands and just winding things down. Snow depth up to my knees made walking very difficult. The deer are already picking at junipers and cedars. Reminds me of the winter of 2008, and as you mentioned, we all know what that did to the deer herds. I have a bad feeling about this winter…
That guy Therien is a real piece of work. A deer cull because of one very unfortunate accident.
If it was up to this guy we’d all be wearing helmets when we drive
I think I see my beagle in that picture hehe
With the freezing rain and the crust that has developed in some areas of eastern Ontario, the herd may experience a natural “cull” this winter. Couple this with high coyote numbers and the perceived population excess is probably a non issue. Some one being killed in a car/ deer encounter is a rare but devastating accident for the family and they have my sympathy. However in principle I’m against wholesale deer culls when increased hunting opportunities accomplish the same thing with no cost to government and no waste of the meat. That being said from what I hear from hunting friends there certainly were not too many deer this fall in most areas of Eastern Ontario.
Some so called experts are so engrossed in their own self-importance their advice boarders on the ludicrous. If this gentleman had done any research he would have known that the deer population in Eastern Ontario is down significantly from seasons past. The recent reduction in the number of deer car collision numbers show this fact that even he should be able to comprehend.
ARE you kidding me… its sad to see someone die but where i am right now there is 20 to 50 deer in a field every night and people are traveling 45-55 mph , yes the deer are smaller in virginia but cause the same damage, we drove the the processers last night to drop some deer off and we counted over 200 deer we in ontario do not know what a deer problem is.
What on earth does Mr. Denis Therien know about managing wildlife populations, conservation, deer population numbers? Absolutely nothing. I think he is irresponsible to make a public statement like that.
So what, we’re going to exploit this awful tragedy to make all those gun totting hunters out there happy? More death is not the answer. We destroy the territory of these gentle creatures and blame them for trying to survive out there. These animals do not deserve this death sentence when nature and human civilization works just fine to keep populations in check. We need to find a way to live with them and use more creative solutions then an all out bloodbath. Please reconsider.
And another thing. It seems to me that there would be a bigger reaction from the media/the usual suspects if it was a hunting organization making a recommendation for a cull — the hysteria that would follow that! Just dare to suggest a coyote cull is needed.
Kristen, I can assure you that this ill informed proposal for a cull does not make us “gun toting hunters” happy.
Nothing like topics like this to get emotionally driven animal lovers to come to the rescue.
If people of her ilk were to actually talk to hunters, they would see that there isn’t too much difference between our goals and their, less of course a freezer full of meat that came from a wild healthy life, as opposed a stagnant grain fed one.
I saw this and my first thought is my heart goes out to the family. A very tragic accident. The article also forgot the fellow from the valley (I forget the exact place), but he died in the summer? I believe a few years ago. Had something like 6 kids. Same thing, deer was hit by another vehicle and killed him 🙁
As for a cull, no. I don’t think that’s the answer. As most have pointed out, this winter isn’t going to be a pretty one for deer populations given the amount of snow already.
I don’t believe the population in Eastern Ontario is back and I don’t even mean back to pre-2008 winter levels. It still seems low and people aren’t getting anterless tags as easily as before. I believe it’s coming back, but just not there yet.
In fact, I hope it doesn’t get to pre-2008 levels. Buying 6 additional seals maybe fun, but to me, that cries mismanagement to let levels get that high i the 1st place. Perhaps I’m wrong on what that happened.
I’d like to see extended urban (bows only or maybe shotgun) hunting allowed. I find, from my own unprofessional research (ie. no official study!), most of the deer I see are in areas we can’t hunt. Too close to urban areas or well within city limits.
Do I think the populations are at a point where need urban hunting? I don’t think quite yet, but if the populations are allowed to flourish in these areas without predation, it’s common sense imho, that they’ll grow exponentially again.
I know this fellow died in a rural area so maybe my suggestion wouldn’t help those areas, but I don’t think a cull is necessary. I think what happened is truly an unfortunate incident. Heartbreaking for the family.
Hunting Mom raises another good point. If this was Outdoorsguy leading the charge for an all out cull, this blog (and any of us amazing posters) would be vilified by the antis.
I sure hope Kristen reads my post. We’re not out for a bloodbath. Although, if this was your relative, you may be thinking differently.
Wow…alot of grammatical errors from my post which weren’t in the original.
Don’t hold it against me! 🙂
Thanks everyone for your comments…this is an emotionally-charged issue to say the least and I aim to tread lightly.
I believe what has truly taken folks by surprise here is the hunting community’s response to this call for a deer cull. Most tree-huggers automatically and instinctly think us hunters would be chomping at the bit for any chance to kill more deer.
WRONG!!
It may be a surprise to some (those outside of the local hunting community) that I have personally passed-up on ten times the number of whitetails I could have legally harvested over past 6-7 years.
Why? Because Im a good Samaritan??
Most of us are CONSERVATIONISTS first and foremost, we are the TRUE animal lovers, and to speak of a cull is simply not the answer at this point. Oh, and we certainly are NOT trying to exploit this terrible accident to further our agenda, anyone who’s followed posts here over the years would realize that.
It’s just not our style but more a tactic used by those who supposedly represent the rights of animals.
I’d rather focus on this discussion as it pertains to wildlife management’ following some ill-conceived comments regarding a deer cull. It does; however, bring up some interesting psychology as many have pointed out:
Had I (an outspoken pro-hunter) launched a campaign to deliver a massive whitetail cull to Eastern Ontario, our anti-hunter brethren would have torn me a new arse! (the sort of mentality which forces me to have an unlisted phone number)
What does this say about our society? What does this say about some folks who live in the National Capital Region? What does this say about conservation and animal rights?
To me it speaks volumes…
Outdoorsguy
This is exactly how stupid laws come into being; one ill informed person makes the statement about how they can make the world safer and it snowballs from there. Look, we even have anti’s show up here at the mere mention of it. All of a sudden there is a cause for saving something from the comfort of the couch.
Sure it’s a tragic event for the families, but a freak accident no more, no less. Highways like the 416 are deathtraps for all wildlife, not just deer. Anyone travel it when it was being worked on? Lost count at the number of snapping turtles I saw cracked on the road or up against a concrete barrier. Too small to instigate a ‘cull’ I presume? Or rather it was a vehicular cull so that’s okay as long as guns and hunters aren’t involved. You just never know when those nuisance turtles are going to dart out from the ditch!
I am a stone throw from Kemptville and here the deer numbers are way down, and with the conditions this winter they will be down even more. My buddy has seen one deer this year and he bow hunts almost every day. Far cry from a few years back when the 3 of them took tagged 3 deer each; after the gun gang filled 8 tags. I bet you could still hit a deer here if you drive the roads enough. I could walk my entire property on the crust after the recent ice storm but post thaw it’s not only crusted, it’s like a skating rink in spots so no doubt the upper hand goes to predators this winter not to mention the deer that starve, or go down on the ice and can’t get up. That’s nature in all it’s glory.
More to the point, traffic is constantly increasing in volume and because our roads span vast areas it’s inevitable that there will be animal collisions, geez. Do we kill them all to make it safer for us humans? I would bet money that animal related deaths on highways is insignificant compared to the numbers of distracted driving fatalities. Not even close.
This could be a new tax opportunity for our provincial government where anyone with property will be taxed per deer, to cover the liability on the roads and ‘drain’ on our health care. I hope they aren’t reading.
Jeff had you advocated a massive whitetail cull it would not have been only the anti-hunters who would have torn you a new arse!
hahaha Rick, I have no doubt about that!!
Outdoorsguy
Fatal flying deer crash unlikely to lead to cull
Roy Khabbaz, 31, killed Christmas Day after car knocked deer into his windshield
CBC News Posted: Dec 30, 2013 5:40 PM ET| Last Updated: Dec 30, 2013 5:40 PM ET
The white-tailed deer population is around 400,000 in Ontario and there are no plans for a cull, said the Ministry of Natural Resources.
The white-tailed deer population is around 400,000 in Ontario and there are no plans for a cull, said the Ministry of Natural Resources. (Garrett Cheen/The Livingstone Enterprise/AP)
■Airborne deer hits car, kills man on Christmas Day
■Moose class-action trial delayed, judge decides
■Ontario’s Ministry of Natural Resources
(Note: CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external links.)
Despite calls from safety advocates, Ontario’s Ministry of Natural Resources says they’re likely not going to take any extra measures to control the province’s deer population after a fatal crash.
Thirty-one year old Roy Khabbaz was killed south of Kemptville on Wednesday as he drove to Christmas dinner with his fiancé.
The crash was caused when a car in the oncoming lane hit a deer, which was flung into the windshield of Khabbaz’s Honda Civic.
■
Emile Therien is the past president of the Canada Safety Council and said the crash has led to his call for a cull of the deer population.
“I think there’s far too many deer,” he said Monday.
“People would argue that their numbers are down, but I think they’re not down enough and we’ve got to work on that.”
Two local reports of fatal deer collisions in 20 years
Ontario’s Ministry of Natural Resources said a cull has been tried in the past, but they’re not concerned about the province’s deer population.
“There have been occasions in the past when we’ve issued extra deer seals, so hunters could take more deer,” said Jolanta Kowalski.
“But overall the population of whitetail deer in Ontario is around 400,000 and it’s generally considered stable.”
Kowalski said a cold, snowy winter will make it difficult for deer to move around and increase their energy levels, which makes them more vulnerable to predators and can in turn affect their numbers.
For context, CBC News found only two reports of fatal collisions involving deer over the last 20 years in the Ottawa area.
Newfoundland and Labrador, for instance, has about half the population of Ottawa but averages around three fatal moose-vehicle collisions a year.
Their provincial government has responded to a class-action lawsuit with a pilot project to install fences and infrared moose detectors at a cost of $1 million for every three kilometres of road.
Thanks Iggy, as expected the MNR has no intention of increasing the deer harvest for Eastern Ontario.
Anyone know anything about this ‘class action’ lawsuit that’s mentioned?
If you have never seen or heard about the infrared animal detectors they speak of, check this out..awesome:
http://www.augsignals.com/page.php?menu=40
Outdoorsguy
Quote: Hunting mom says:
December 30, 2013 at 5:28 pm
What on earth does Mr. Denis Therien know about managing wildlife populations, conservation, deer population numbers?
=================================================================================
Mr Therien knows everything about everything
Also known as a KNOW IT ALL!
Jeff, you are correct – we are conservationists at heart as well. I missed a buck this year with the bow (twice in one sitting!), but the point of this story is that 20 minutes later, a doe came out.
I had another arrow notched, but I decided not to even try shooting her b/c I know she had previously been with 2 fawns. Given the snow amounts this year, I figure the wee ones are going to need Momma so I let her go.
Then the buck came out again, but I couldn’t draw for another shot.
Unreal that day, but the point is that, yes, we are conservationists first and foremost.
Some people just think we’re bloody thirsty maniacs.
Which is sad. 🙁
“For context, CBC News found only two reports of fatal collisions involving deer over the last 20 years in the Ottawa area.”
Sources say that both cases were ‘reportedly’, import cars; further indication that we need to ban unsafe Honda vehicles from Canadian roads.
That statement while placed with tongue planted firmly in cheek yet is about as relevant as a deer cull in this situation.
phew…thought you were going to say Toyota!
Outdoorsguy
Yes, we need a cull of Honda Civics!
Happy New Year everyone.
Re – Newfoundland Moose – “Their provincial government has responded to a class-action lawsuit with a pilot project to install fences and infrared moose detectors at a cost of $1 million for every three kilometres of road.”
We are blaming the government ($$$) for hitting moose now? Seriously? How does this stuff even make it to the courts? What’s next; put a roof over all roads so they won’t get icy?
Unfortunately johan, oftentimes when something terrible happens…it is human nature to automatically look for someone or something to blame.
Sadly, in many cases..shit just happens and no one is really to blame. Some incidents are more just a sequence of unfortunate events. Factors like…had it not been slippery that day, or had I left the house an hour before earlier, or had I been driving a bit slower…or maybe a bit faster even. Wrong place at the wrong time, I mean we’ve heard them all before.
Sort of a morbid comparison, but why do you think most marriages never survive the unexpected death of a young child? Parents find comfort in blaming someone (oftentimes their spouse) in times of emotional turmoil.
In life, shitty things sometimes happen and its really no one’s fault…
Well..on that note…Happy New Year everyone!!
Outdoorsguy
jeff don’t forget most people who hit deer are not paying attention to the road or don’t know how to avoid them however only a moron would want a deer cull this winter will be very hard on most of the herds .Also most of the non hunters have lots of opinions but have spent very little time in a forested area and actually watched nature. certain areas do have more deer than other zones such as kanata barrhaven but only at spring time will we be able to actually see how the deer population did over these winter months
I asked wildlife biologist, few years ago, how many deer in Ontario? He responded, I do not know. Asked what the carrying capacity of Ontario was? I do not know. Asked what carrying capacity is for my area, he does not know. Simple conclusion. The MNR does not know anything about whitetail deer other than hunting them keeps them employed. Its time money is spent so we know the answer to these very basic questions
Chessy, they know how much to charge for a license to hunt them though
@ Iggy. You got that right. All about money. No reason at all our licence that high. With this winter and last years piss poor deer hunt. I may just be a spectator in the park and save my 50 bucks and use it towards my out of state licence. PS. Brought back 3deer and my limit of sripers out of state yearly licence 47 bucks. And deer 180. Cheaper for me not to hunt in my own province
I can just see Chessy driving through customs with three deer strapped to the roof of the van, and a load of stripers in the back, when Border Patrol asks;
“Anything to declare, sir?”
Outdoorsguy
@Jeff. That’s how we roll in redneck land every Jan 1. What’s in car. Deer and fish. Last year it was you cannot bring venison to Ontario!!! My wife sighed then I politely explained to them I can as long as no head or spinal cord was attached I could , 20 min later I was free to go, lesson learned no matter how polite to customs officer in explaining to them they have made a mistake you are in for a delay this year was no problem as usual. One bad year out of 10 is good .
Sounds like a pretty good average Chessy!
Outdoorsguy
A buddy of mine, Rob Argue (don’t Argue with him) is the federal guy that takes care of some of that and you can’t even go province to province with a full moose deer or elk
Iggy, it sounds like things are more liberal going from US – Canada than they are going from province to province…weird.
How is Rob doing with his Outfitting business? Does he keep the camps/lodge open throughout the winter??
Outdoorsguy
Jeff i have to agree with our friend about the deer cull except it needs to be done within the city much like the one up north in one of the cities up there where the deer are all over the streets and lawns. So i am willing to give him permission to approach the NCC for all over the green belt between Greenbank and all the way out to Kanata, experimental farms for access to the properties between hunt club road and Barrhaven, DND for access to the canaught range and all there property. Then maybe he can approach all the farms along the 416 corridor. Now i think that just about covers most of the areas with problem deer cause god knows we don’t have problems like that elsewhere this year. I must say this fall was one of the hardest hunts for big bucks i ever had. So the sooner are chum gets ask’in the better.
Oh i forgot to mention that then he can approach the city of Ottawa to get final approval. I’m sure they will be delighted to have hear from him and once the public finds out he is sure to make alot of new friends
Good luck with the NCC is all I can say.
I know a fellow who has a farm just south east of Ottawa and he rents most of his land from the NCC. he asked me to bow hunt there because his farm is over-run by deer. Then he got THE letter! The NCC somehow got wind of him looking for hunters and the letter threatened his that if he let, encouraged or helped hunters on his rented land they would consider it a breach of the lease agreement and the lease would be considered over and they would under no circumstances re-lease him the land. In other words, if they found any evidence of a hunter on the land, his livelihood would be over. That was the end of that hunt.
This is in a City of Ottawa legal bow hunt area.
Another guy that runs a small business on NCC land west of Ottawa was also warned because the NCC cops found tree stands near his property. They told him even if he wasn’t responsible for the stands they would break his lease if they found any on his leased property
The NCC is run by anti hunters and they couldn’t care less about how much damage the deer do or how dangerous they make the roads
Is the Ncc. Nature conservatory of Canada
@ Chessy
National Capital Commission
AKA Nazi Corrupt Communists
they own most of the green space around Ottawa, most of it through evicting farmers out of their land, then when the land becomes valuable enough they sell it for HUGE profits. They steal it from the farmers for pennies on the acre because they fight rezoning, then they expropriate, then when there is a big demand they rezone and sell it as commercial land. Where the east end Costco and all the other retail in that area is a case in point. They relieved the Woodburn farm family of it.
Must not be enough deer in Ontario. They are raising the price of all hunting and fishing licences. Yup. MNR know how to make money
When your dedicated Sunshine team of tax creation engineers have exhausted all possibilities you have no choice than to raise existing fees. How else are we going to fund those programs promised to Torontonians?
Looks like Rob is closed during the winter although he does go up
yep we keep getting gouged with the price increases in small game deer and fishing licences and migratory bird licences . The morons that keep raising the dollar amounts should put some of the damn money back into fisheries and game but we know where it goes to toronto and the sucklers .they remind me of carp constantly looking for more
Off to the hunt camp for our winter wonderful weekend
A little ice fishing and a lot of fun
Also our hunt camp AGM this Thursday, could be some friction
Just back from holidays..what’d I miss?
Passed through Hill Island border last night and was suprised to find out the CBSA guy recognized me and was a hunter and a reader of my articles over the years. Damn…shoulda brought that extra case of beer across!!
Anyone who missed this month’s Pembroke Column, here ya go. Been out for a week and still on the front page!
http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/2014/01/16/safety-and-regs-first-before-ice-fishing
Outdoorsguy
P.S. Gotta check my local trailcams this week…see what my deer have been up to. They’re hopefully enjoying less snow pack out there since I left 10 days ago.
what did you miss. Come on. Myself was sent to hospital suffering from sever blog loss .holidays over get back to writing how many days off do you get. You need to have blogs per typed from now on or no play for you.. also hope you had a great time
hehe..come on Chessy, even I know there’s no such illness!!
I’ll be back into the Blog real soon dont you worry, for now my Publisher has me in middle of editing the long-awaited
Canadian Wild Game Cookbook.(due out in May)…how’s that for a plug..and I also have another book manuscript due Feb 1st..
Oh, and for those who havent heard..my fav home away from home Fairmont Kenauk has now officially been sold and is being called Nature Kenauk..apparently it went for less than half the 81 million asking price..damn, had I known!
Outdoorsguy
Had a blast at the camp, caught some pike, and ate them, they are great out of cold water, didn’t catch any speks but caught a good hangover on Friday night and suffered on Saturday
The weather is usually -15 to -30 but this year we got a summer like weekend, -10 at night and -3 during the day.
It’s so nice to be able to get out for a weekend in the wilderness and have fun with so miny friends
Starting to get stale buddy 😉
Sounds like fun Iggs…hunt camp is fun regardless of what time of year you’re there!
I know…I know…gettin stale..hehe
Here ya go, memories of fall:
http://blogs.canoe.ca/outdoorsguy/hunting/trailcam-memories-of-fall/
Outdoorsguy